The Pilgrims Progress

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Welcome to the Cornerstone Church podcast.

Great to have you tuning in for another week.

We are carrying on.

We're still in the Pilgrim's progress.

And, we're in the the penultimate chapter, really.

So over the next couple of weeks, we're we're thinking, that we're we're gonna come to the end of the journey.

So so we so we're right we're right there now, and we're, walking along with Christian and Hopeful as they encounter some of their last challenges, before they get to rest forever, with the lord.

Last time we had a, a, an episode that focused quite a lot on ignorance, this character ignorance, and their conversation with him.

And, he resurfaces in this chapter as well, but before that, there's a couple of other characters to meet.

And so I'm here again with Pete and Rory.

Hello.

Hello.

And all the, previous episodes, you can catch with on our on our podcast channel.

And so they they they go on.

So Christian and Hopeful, and this is where we pick up the story.

They they go on and, ignorance is following behind, and just as they were thinking about the way and, what they weren't gonna do, they they meet a man, and it says behold a dark looking man covered with a very light robe.

And, Well, it actually just said in the in the actual original, it's a a man of black flesh covered in a very light robe.

I mean, I think it is worth just talking about this because I think this is where in our age, we cancel him because he's a racist, but that that isn't going on in his mind.

I don't think I think, we'll see as we discuss that this this black man is not really a black man.

He's an a he's coming as an angel of light.

And so what he's doing is he's he's showing the difference between light and darkness.

That that's what he's trying to show and that this man is a flatterer and a liar So he presents himself as 1 thing, but he's another thing.

And that's the big issue here.

It's not really his black skin.

And it would be utterly shameful for us in our day and age to say, oh, bunyan's a racist.

I'm not gonna read anything about it because it's just that would just be not true, I don't think.

No.

And all the way throughout this book, the physical has been teaching spiritual lessons.

And and that's what's going on here.

It's the contrast between the light outer Yeah.

Which promises guidance and truth and revelation, and the black inner, which has to do with darkness and confusion and lies.

So it has nothing to do with, color of skin or anything like that.

As you say, it's the contrast between light and what it stands for and dark and what it stands for is the thing here.

And so, anyway, this man approaches.

And as you said, he's called the flatterer, and the flattera asks them Christian and Hopeful why are you standing there? And they say we're going to the celestial city, but we don't know which of these ways to take.

And flatter his responses, well, you should follow me because that's where I'm going.

Yeah.

And so in some ways, at this stage of the journey, quite surprising that they then just do that.

They don't really ask Well, they they help come to or they They're not coming to a crossroads, but they come to a place for Fortcorp, perhaps.

Or There are 2 roads.

Yeah.

And they're both as straight as each other Yes.

As far as they can perceive.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, their mistake was was not as as, I guess, as we have seen, was not following what the shepherds had said.

They'd been given this information to to be able to work out which 1 to go on.

And they they forgot that and didn't bother about that.

And a flatterer had obviously come along with his flattery and his outward, I am an angel of light stuff to to take them down the wrong road.

Yes.

Yep.

Yeah.

And and they are culpable for what happens next, though, because they so what happens is they begin to follow the flatterr And after time, the road that they are taking begins to slowly turn its back on the celestial city, and Bunion says that their own faces by degrees were turning more and more with every step away from the celestial city until their backs are to it.

And then Bunion says, yet they follow him.

Yes.

And so they continued even though they could see that they were no longer oriented hated in in the right direction.

And then of course, it goes very wrong.

Yeah.

But but but that's what Flattery does, doesn't it? It it it possesses you, it talks about you.

It it, it turns your face to look inwardly and and think about yourself.

You're a good person.

You're a nice person.

You're a, you know, you're not that bad.

And and as you've follow that, you turn away from the from the truth.

And and it is amazing what a bit of flattery does.

And the and the problems warn us about people with lying tongues, don't they? And fork tongues and, you know, things like that, like a snake.

And and that's what and that's exactly you know, what the what the snake did in the garden with Eve.

There's flattery.

You know, there's sort of encouragements.

You too could be like god.

You you you will see things you've never seen before.

Just look at that.

And it and, you know, before you know it, you're taken up with yourself and what you're gonna get out of stuff and all of that.

That's what flattery does.

The and the error seems to have started by not looking at the word.

The instruction that they were given by the shepherds, they had, and they could have followed, but they've already started to go away from the word and trusting themselves.

And then when the it comes, he can easily deceive because it's they've already taken their eyes off Yes.

Who's important.

Well, that is that is like Eve, isn't it? Yeah.

Eve should have said, talk to Adam because this is the rules that these are the laws that we've got.

Yeah.

And so they end up inside a net I guess it's like, you know, those old fashioned, forest traps, you know, if you wanted to catch a a rabbit or a small deer or something, you put a little bit of bait in the middle, and there's a trap, a net.

And as they step on it, it whips them up into the branches.

It's that kind of thing.

And, anyway, they're caught and, they start weeping, and they are chastising themselves because they should have listened as you been saying to the to the instructions that they that they had.

But then as they lay be wailing themselves in the nets, they by this shining 1, coming towards them with a whip of small cords in his hand.

And so it sounds pretty, scary, doesn't it? Yeah.

You you kinda know what's, know what's coming here.

And, then this shining 1, basically interrogates them and and and is wanting to find out how they've ended up in this net, when they were supposed to be on the mountains.

Uh-uh, okay.

Did the shepherd give you a notes on how to navigate these parts? Well, yeah, they did.

And, well, did you when you were confused, get out that note and read it, no, why we forgot.

Did the shepherds at least warn you to be aware of flatters? Yes.

But we did not imagine that such a fine spoken man could could could be him.

And so, you know, he basically and this is part of, you know, proper discipline, isn't it? He he's trying to go back over their error with them.

You know, there's there's no there would be no use just coming straight with the whip.

He wants to sort of teach them where they went wrong in their thinking.

You know, did you Did you have a lacking resources? No.

Did you not have what you needed now? So he wants to show them where they've gone wrong.

Which is very helpful, isn't it? He cuts him out of the net first and then shows him that, doesn't he? So that that I think that's absolutely right.

So that so he's a good 1, isn't he? He's not a trapper or a deceiver or a flatterr.

He's certainly not a flatterr because he's speaking truth to them.

That's gonna hurt them, isn't it? So, Yeah.

I think the the the interesting thing, about the the the flatterr is is that he I've I've forgotten what I was gonna say, actually.

So over to you.

Well, no.

I mean, only that he Yeah.

I mean, only that, then this, this shining 1, really gets down to the business of disciplining them.

So he he he then takes the whip to them and chastised to them sore.

Yeah.

It says there.

But again, this is done out of love.

So it says, you know, as many as I love, I rebuke.

And so this is, this is part of the lord's goodness to them.

He's not just to to put them back on the right road and pretends nothing happens, but to teach them their error.

Yeah.

And to even sort of withdraw a bit of his goodness and blessing from them, so that they might repent and seek the good things that they did enjoy.

You know? I mean, that's what I was gonna say.

So you you would think, wouldn't you? When we read this, I think we said it when we we reread it together, that these these seasoned followers of Christ would have picked up the flatterr quite quite quickly.

But but this is life, isn't it? You know, we we we think we we know.

We we we think we understand flatterers.

But they, but they, they, that's the point of them.

They, they come with truth, don't they? They come with sort of, they they are an angel of light.

They're they're telling us, things that sound right And I and I think we we we can easily fall for that.

That's why we need to be fundamentally, looking at the scriptures and really listening sometimes to to new people that we hear.

What are they saying? What are they actually really saying? We'll get that in some of the conversations with ignorance in a minute.

You know, they really, they really take ignorance apart, don't they? In a minute.

But, they should have done that with flatter, really.

Yeah.

But it's just amazing that Well, flattery.

Spoke so well.

Yeah.

And flattery appeals to our flesh.

That's that's the problem with it.

Is that it strokes and massages as our ego.

Yeah.

And therefore, it makes you do things which, you know, in principle, you might be against and feel in your conscience that it would be wrong for you to do.

But if somebody says, oh, you'd be brilliant at this, mate.

I can't think of anyone better.

I love you.

You know, I love you, you'd be, you know, we we wouldn't trust anyone else with this.

Like, this is why we're coming to you because you can hold these people together, and you can do it, and you'll be brilliant.

You know? And it all is so nice to hear, isn't it? Because, you know, the idea that people might be thinking well of us and think believe in us and think we can do something is great.

And so, you can trample over quite a lot of conscience, you know, if you get some news like that in the year, can't you? And that's the danger of it.

And I think what they're trying to say is the part of having a sober mind is you you you you you might sort of hear that, but you're looking through that and saying, no.

Come on.

What is this right to do or not? You know, but other people that they meet, they they, I think nearly always, and we've noticed this before, ask the question, where did you from? How did you start the journey? Yeah.

They don't do that with flattera.

They don't ask those basic questions to make sure that he's a sound sound mind.

They just believe him.

Yeah.

The times that, yeah, they often go.

They do get when they get caught, it's because they're not usually switched on and asking those questions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wish they did of of ignorance.

Yep.

Yep.

So, that He beats them.

He beats them, and they're on their way, and they're thanking him for his kindness in beating them.

And sick do they sing a song? I think they sing a song They do.

Yeah.

They do.

And, to to kind of, go over that, what's happened.

And then they they move on to an and they see another person coming softly and all alone, along the highway.

And, Christian says Coming the other way, though, coming towards them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

Coming towards them.

And, Christian says to his fellow, look, here is a man with his back towards heaven.

And he is coming to meet us.

I see, let us take heed to ourselves, said, hopeful lest he should prove a flatter or so.

So they've got recent events in the forefront of their minds, and they're now, more alert, which is good, and they think, this could be a I mean, it's immediately suspicious because he's going the other way.

And, we've just had a tough lesson talk to us, so we need to be on our guard here.

And and who is this that they that they meet? We've got atheist, coming right up to them.

He's makes a beeline towards him and he asks them where they're going to which they are to go into Mount Zion.

And he falls into a great laughter.

Yeah.

Howling laughter.

It's quite depressing, really, if you're Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is which is often how an atheist does it's that belittling, isn't it? Yeah.

It it's it's looking down and saying, okay.

And and I mean, that is his his his his way, isn't it? I know more than you.

Yeah.

And and I'm and part of his argument is I've been further than you Yeah.

Along this road, and I didn't see any your sister.

Yeah.

It's so be so silly.

It's it's a very much a lucky it's a classic looking down on, and trying to show your your your belief system to be absolutely ridiculous.

Yep.

And, I think that that can be quite hard to deal with when someone make belittles what you believe.

Yeah.

And sometimes you can think, oh, well, Am I stupid for, you know, going down this path? Particularly someone like this who says he's been on the road.

Yeah.

And he's been seeking for 20 years or whatever it was.

Been further.

And and he's been further.

More philosophy.

He's done more study.

He's he's looked at it all.

He's discovered.

And and there's nothing there.

And so he says to them I used to be an evangelicalist when when people say that sort of stuff, isn't it? Deconstructed, isn't he, or whatever the word is now But, yeah, I mean, he the the true thing that he says is that he he understands that it's a tedious journey, and that it's full of hard hard slog.

And he says to them, I want you to know that you will have nothing at the end of this except the pain that you have endured on this journey.

Which is sort of like saying, you know, you could be much happier if you didn't go along with this Jesus stuff.

You could avoid lots of unnecessary embarrassment, pain, rejection.

You could be freer, happier, more normal, you know, flowing with the the river of everybody else not trying to swim against it, but, you know, it would be much easier.

So firstly, this place doesn't exist.

And secondly, it's just gonna give you a life that is less enjoyable and more painful than what everyone else is having.

And I I mean, that's fine.

That is the is the sort of the reasoning that atheism is the most, enlightened, happy way of living.

You know, which, of course, which, of course, it isn't.

So that's his argument there.

I mean, in 1 in 1 sense, I mean, Paul does say, doesn't he, in in 1 Corinthians that, you know, if if the resurrection isn't true, if there isn't a celestial city, if Yes.

Then then we are to be most pitted And in 1 sense, that is true, isn't it? Because because the arguments often been given, and there is truth in it, that there's just a trouble that the Christian life is the best best way to live.

And then if you look at a lot of, you know, studies and surveys that have done, then often Christians are them are them, are, you know, they have best families.

I mean, there's there's research done.

They have the best sex.

So in 1 sense, we do have a better life, but of course, and that's in the Western world, but of course, there are Christians like in North Korea and other places that are are suffering intensely.

And then that would be a Surd, wouldn't it, to to if the if if this is not true, why would I go through a a a concentration camp in North Korea.

Yep.

So he's right on that level if there is no resurrection.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

There's no hope if if the hope that you're living for is not there.

Yeah.

That's quite a sad life, isn't it? That you've lived at your whole life to attain a reward.

Yeah.

And the reward is not there.

Yeah.

That is quite a depressing.

Yeah.

So we ought to be pitied if we're wrong.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then and then Christian says to hope for, is it true what this man is saying? Now later we discover that Christian is actually testing hopeful because he wants to see if there's if there's fruit and understanding in Hopeful's heart here.

But hopeful answers really quite well, and he says there are 3 things that ought to make suspicious of this man.

Firstly, we've listened to these kind of guys before, and it's never gone well for us.

So we should be immediately suspicious of this.

Secondly, we've just seen the gates of Mount Zion.

So in other words, we've had you know, clear visions of what is to come.

We've seen it with our own eyes by by faith, really.

And thirdly, he says, are we not to live by faith and not by sight, which seems to sort of contradict the other point, but it but it doesn't really because atheist argument is I've been along the road and there's nothing there.

And they say, well, we're not looking for anything in this world.

Yes.

Yeah.

So we're moving to the next world, our our inheritance is to come.

We're embracing a city that is that is coming to us.

And so they're those are faithful terrific line there, isn't it? Have you got that? Cause I I can't I just thought the way it was put was just terrific.

So, So, it says, why man? Do you think we shall not be received? Christian asked, received explained atheist? There is not such a place as you dream of in all this world.

But there is in the world to come, Contended Christian.

Yeah.

It's a great, great line.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we're not here to have an easy time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why do you think so, so Bunion calls him, or in the mouth of, 1 of them.

I can't remember his hopeful or Christian now.

Calls, atheist a flatterer.

Interesting that he would put him under the flattering.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, yeah, I think he he says, Hopeful says, let us take heed lest he should prove to be a flatterr also.

Okay.

So it may be, I was sort of thinking the opposite to flattery is sort of mockery, isn't it? Because you're mocked but if you became 1 of him, he would flatter you.

I was wondering if that sort of thing was atheist largely mock.

I mean, the new atheists rather today, they're just just mocking, aren't they? They always mock Christians.

I mean, he he is saying at the end, Hopeful says this man is 1 of the flatterers.

Yeah.

He does say consider him a flatter.

Right.

I suppose he's saying he's try he's appealing to the fact that if you look at this world, there's clearly no heaven.

So come on now.

Let's not save yourself pain.

Yep.

Live live in this world as it is now.

So maybe it's that that's the sort of flattery.

It's like playing on the senses that we can't see anything.

I've experienced everything.

So come on.

Come with me.

Believe in such a stupid thing as a god.

Yes.

Let's go and live.

Yeah.

Well, any any world view that exalts human wisdom and understanding is flattering because we can come to it through our own intelligence and our own research.

And that that's lovely because we can unlock the secrets to the world.

We can dismiss the supernatural we look, we've done it.

Look at what we've got, we've got the microscope, we've got the telescope, we can get a jupyter, we can see everything.

Like, look, we know everything, you know, And so there's no humility with that, really, and it makes us feel good because we can understand everything.

But these are saying, no, we're we're we're walking a different, you know, we're living by faith.

And so they leave atheist behind.

And the the last day here of him is just him cackling at them, you know, still, and he goes his way.

And that's that's the end of it, really.

And then they come into a certain country whose heir naturally tended to make 1 drowsy if he came a stranger into it.

So they're moving into this land now, which I don't know if it has a oh, in charge of ground.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, yeah, there's some thing in the air here.

You've got your Christian armor wrapped tight around you.

You're gonna you're gonna fall under its bewitching spell, and it's gonna do your harm and, hopeful begins to feel dull and heavy to sleep.

Yeah.

And then Christian.

Thankfully, he's got a mate with him.

And, so it's Duncan.

Helps him out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, yeah, he no.

No.

You're in danger.

If you go to sleep, you may never wake up.

And, and, that's that's a great encouragement to Hopeful, isn't it? And he he thanks him.

And and says, oh, this is why 2 are better than 1.

This is why we need basically, this is why we need Christian fellowship, isn't it? To keep each other going, watch out, brother.

Don't go to sleep.

And then the way they don't go to sleep is is to, spark up a spiritual conversation, isn't it? And and they go over a whole load of stuff, don't they, you know, how they were saved and all that sort of stuff again, which is just really good, isn't it? It's going over the basics and showing the reality that they've they've, of god in their lives and Christ's salvation and just, you know, just talking like that.

Yeah.

That's right.

And and I mean, hopeful, you know, he he needs rescuing, doesn't he, as you say? Cause he he argues that sleep is good.

Yeah.

You know, he says, no, but it's it's is sleep is sweet to the laboring man.

We'll be refreshed if we take a nap, you know.

Yeah.

And, Christian basically responds by saying, well, yes and no.

I mean, there's there are times where we need to sabbath and rest but never to fall asleep, and especially not in a place like this, which we've already been warned about.

And so that's you know, that sounds Well, that's just good.

I mean, that, I mean, that happens in not, you know, just life, wasn't it? You're driving along.

You feel sleepy.

What's the driver say? Talk to me.

You know, let's let's, you know, if you put music on, it's a disaster.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's let's let's get the brain going.

Let's get the thinking going.

Let's deal with some I used to have a mate who wouldn't allow anyone else to sleep while he was driving.

I think that's good.

Ali would go and he would if he saw you, he would just emergency stop, but that and then you would I should have done it with my wife.

Yeah.

She's always asleep in the side.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I desperately track in my eyes.

I Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, I mean, that's right.

Good conversation keeps you going.

And so, you know, in the that applies to the Christian, obviously.

Yeah.

So lots of lots of conversation to keep them going.

Going over their testimony, going over their convictions, and, then, is, but there's a pause in that, and it says I saw then in the dream hopeful look back and saw ignorance whom they had left behind coming after.

And, hopeful says to Christian look, he's he's John, you know, he's behind us and, and then they decide that, instead of going on, they'll wait.

They'll just wait for him and See if he's driving his lessons.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you see where he's at, basically.

And so how does that how does that conversation get going then? Well, I I I I just love the way Bunion says, so ignorant says, I take my pleasure in walking alone, even more a great deal, than in com than in company.

And, I mean, that's just a pick of ignorance, isn't it? In ignorance is a a lone figure because he's not gonna be instructed by anyone else.

It's just a great, you know, I'm alone, I think myself.

I, you know, I don't need any input.

It starts off like that.

Yeah.

Which they've just we've just learned from the enchanted ground is exactly the opposite of what you need to do.

Yep.

You need to have company.

And so then they say to him, how stands it between god and your soul now? And you know, ignorance kind of picks up where he left off.

He he feels that he's doing fine.

You know, he's that there are good thoughts that he's having and good emotions.

I think of god and heaven.

He feels himself to be at peace with the lord and I mean, there's a lovely 2 and froing.

I think the god in heaven says ignorance, so do the devils and damned souls.

So it's just there's there's a sort of punch up going on here.

Well, I love it.

Hit the answer ignorance jotted his chin and held it desire, but I think of them and desire them.

Oh, yes.

Then then it goes on.

I desire them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the response come back.

Well, that's not a sign of anything.

You know, the slugard desires things, but has nothing so he would love a, you know, a big bowl of steaming stew, but he can't be bothered to put the hand, to the spoon, to the mouth.

So he won't labor to get what he desires.

And so just wanting something is not a sign of anything.

Yeah.

But he's he's left everything to obtain these.

Yeah.

That's right.

To which Christian says I doubt that very much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and then he says, yeah, he says, I what what makes you so sure you've left everything.

And he says, my heart tells me so.

Yeah.

And that that he's stuck himself up.

Yeah.

He's set himself up.

Yeah.

You know, that's just about the worst thing he could say.

And, Christian says, yes, that's the problem you're trusting in your heart.

That's a foolish thing to do.

And he hates that.

That's the he hates the idea.

I mean, that's really where we're at, isn't it? It's the word of god against your your your heart, isn't it? And, Yeah.

His his argument is that his heart isn't evil.

It's actually a good heart.

Yes.

Mhmm.

Which is, like, again, where is warning signs.

Says, no, now your heart is desperately wicked about all things.

Yeah.

So don't trust your heart.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, And then they have an old conversation.

This is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It it is.

But it but it's also it also turns turns into 1 of those conversations that you that you might sometimes have with Jehovah's Witnesses on the door or kind of Christian sects in the town, because the thing about ignorance is he uses Christian language, but has a means different things by it, So he talks about being justified by Christ.

And any Christian who hears that thinks, ah, this is a brother or a sister is a partner.

That's that's the language I use.

You know, I'm justified by by Christ alone.

But the wisdom of Christian and hope for is to not just let the surface answer sit.

They wanna know not just what you've said, but what do you mean by what you've said? You know, explain that to me.

You use the word justification.

Do we mean the same thing by it or not? And it's that line of questioning, which, shows up ignorance for what he is, because what he actually means is that he's justified by a combination of what Jesus has done and his own good works.

Yep.

Now we know that good works are a very important.

In fact, they are an essential fruit of justification, but they are not the grounds of our justification.

It's the merits of Christ his atoning death, his perfect life.

That that is the grounds of our justification and the good life follows.

He seems to be muddled and think, well, it's sort of half that but also half what god enables me to do.

Yeah.

It's my good works and Christ's good works.

And together, they kind of work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's it's why his belief about his heart is really important to understanding justification because he thinks If I have a good heart in some sense, that means I can please god in some sense.

So he can't believe that his heart is completely and utterly wicked.

So he doesn't understand sin.

It's sort of that Christ, I mean, it's sort of that Christ died for my failures.

Yeah.

And and and my sins, isn't it? The things that I've done, he's and he's given me a a a good step up.

Yep.

And and now it's down to me because my heart isn't that bad No.

Is to work out the good life.

Yeah.

And a lot of people think like this, and what you have to push people, don't you? Sometimes.

And it very is is often, the doctrine of, of sin, isn't it, that really shows people up.

That you are rotten to the core, but there is nothing good that you can do.

Yeah.

Even your good works a flawed and, like, filthy rags in god's sight.

People hate those sort of sayings, don't they? Oh, we all admit we're failures, and we all admit we're not you know, to be human is to fail.

People say things like that.

Yeah.

And, as if that's okay.

But actually, right to the core, there is nothing you can do because every good work is tainted with that, which is appalling Yeah.

To god.

And he hates that, really, ignorance.

They have different gods, basically.

The gods the gods that Christian and hopeful follow is a is a a more holy than than he than ignorance actually understands.

So it it I think it's interesting that those, who follow such teachings, like, and basically religion, they think that they're being holy and that they're better and they're that they're god's holy, but their god's lesser because he's a man made god.

And so, the fall is really just a a bit a bit of naughtiness I mean, there's probably a bit deeper than that, but but the heart isn't completely gone.

So therefore, I can somehow work my yes, as you say, Christ gives me a boost up, but I'm I'm also able to work my way to some sort of, of some sort of righteousness of my own.

And it's just completely different because because the, I mean, I think Christian talks about original sin, In other words, as soon as we fall, that's it.

We're totally depraved.

Yes.

And there's nothing that we can do that can please gods.

And even if we try good things, those good things displease god.

Yeah.

It's an amazing, amazing thing that we must understand that actually we are totally gone.

Yes.

Nothing that I can do.

And so I need I need god to step in.

Yeah.

And, to do all the work for me.

I remember once, outside there was a big debate at the Albert Hall with with a Christian and a and a Muslim debating, And I went up there to try to get in, but it was absolutely packed.

And there was just loads of Muslims outside.

And, I I was on my own walking around.

They say you sort of bunch came up to me.

Are you Christian? And I said, yes.

We have debate now outside.

So I stood up on this wall, and I made a mistake of saying, well, I used to take this line quite a lot.

That Allah is not Holy.

Yeah.

Not like the god of the Bible.

He's an unholy god because he just lets him off.

Yeah.

Whereas the god of the Bible is the 1 that judges in, he has to judge sin.

And of course, if you say that Allah isn't the holy, you get quite a lot of Allah UGG bars going on around you.

And this was all going on with these outright boss.

And then the policemen came over and accused me of causing, you know, disruption.

Yeah.

And wanted to he wanted to arrest me.

Yeah.

And then they held her up after the policeman.

He said, let him speak wanna play.

And so he just went off in the end, but anyway, but that is the difference between religion.

Yeah.

It is is re it is really seeing that that that we are sinful before god, and that needs dealing with.

And that's what justification is.

Were made right by by the work of Christ, not by our own work.

And that's where ignorance will Just doesn't like it, really, doesn't it? No.

No.

And he, I mean, he then goes on to say, and this is something that that Muslims do Wonder, and it's a question that, we've probably all had put to us is is they then say, well, if you're telling me that that the life of Christ and the death Christ are the sole basis of your justification Yes.

And that you are saved and made right entirely by what he's done, then how could that not lead to a life of open immorality.

I mean, because it's all done for you.

So why wouldn't you just go and live a life of indulgence and do whatever the heck you wanted? You know? And, Muslims do say that.

They do they do say that that, you know, well, what so they say, so it doesn't matter what you do then.

It doesn't matter what you do.

And that's where there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the way in which grace operates in the heart.

You you know, it's not just like a you know, a package that's left on your doorstep that you you take, you know, it's the sort of gift that is received with completely empty hand.

But it transforms your heart.

And you and you're so I mean, thankfulness is a huge part of new testament teaching that the that we are overflowing with thankfulness, that we are abounding in thankfulness.

And and we want therefore to to please the savior who has loved us so much.

You know? And so it's the sort of gift which moves to heart in the right direction, whereas ignorance thinks it's all transaction You know, it's something that you're just given and then, oh, okay.

Who cares? I just do whatever I want, but it's not that kind of gift.

But again, I think it probably conveys the fact that they they have a different gods and, and, and a different idea about sin.

I think if you, think about god as who he really is and that we completely deserve the wrath, then then that will spark gratitude, as you say, and it and it gives us a new heart.

Whereas I think Well, Paul deals with this in Romans, doesn't he? So so Paul, so preaches so clearly that we are justified by faith in Christ alone.

But but the question comes up halfway through the book of Romans.

Is, what shall we carry on sinning in so that grace may abound? And in 1 sense, I remember, reading Doctor Martin Roy Jones, He's saying, you've not really preached the gospel until people are so offended that they make that 0, we can do anything we like then, Kimberly.

Because they've because they've not really understood what we're saying until we really make it clear It's nothing to do with you.

It's all to do with Christ.

And then that question comes out and then Paul says, by no means, you know, Of course, you know, and all of the things that you said.

Yeah.

And then they come towards the end of the discussion and and hopeful.

I think it's hopeful, asks him 1 last quest or gets Christian to ask him a question, which is ask him if he had Christ revealed to him from heaven, and ignorance says what? You are a man of revelations.

I do believe that what both you and all the rest of you say about this matter is, but the fruit of attracted brains into his reply.

And so he he basically is saying, ah, this is the key difference, isn't it? Christian Hopeful believed that the way of Salvation is not discernible to the natural mind that it has to be revealed supernaturally to us from god, from heaven, and we need our eyes open by the spirit to get this ignorance basically believes that man can cover it within himself.

He doesn't require any external revelation.

And so he sort sort of thinks Christian and hopeful are charismatic y and mystical he says I'm gonna leave you to your whimsies and your distracted brains.

You know, you're talking like you need an experience of god to under stand this or something.

Whereas I'm saying this is, you know, that I've got a self revelation here.

It's interesting actually because in the in the end, ignorance, is basically an atheist.

He's just an atheist going another way.

And they are they are the same.

It's it's 1 of the things, so in John Blanchard's book, you know, does god believe in atheists? 1 of the big things he he goes, and it and it caused quite a lot of fuss when he wrote it, was that the all religions are basically atheist because because they're loo they're not listening to god.

They're listening to a false god, so they have to be atheist.

So that's his his thing.

So he would he would call Islam, an atheistic religion.

Yeah.

Which obviously doesn't go down very well.

No.

Because they're not really they're not listing to the god because there is only 1 god and his revelation.

And he is, they they are the same, aren't they? Really? They're just going different ways.

They're basically believing in themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All all the forms of self righteousness.

Yep.

All the forms of trying to decide what's right and wrong.

Yep.

So the atheist is a religious person in the sense that the ingress is a religious person.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Yeah.

Well, they part ways with ignorance for now.

I think this isn't the final time that we see ignorance in the book.

But, you know, it's interesting that Bunion spills so much incon ignorance, isn't it? You know, because some of the apostates and stuff only get a line or 2, but he's been given a fair chunk of this book, and I wonder if that's saying that, you know, the lord the lord is very patient sometimes with people, isn't it? And he gives people time after time after time after time, and he puts people in our lives to explain things to us and to help us, but ultimately, if we're so set in our own ways, then we'll be left to them.

And, there's a warning there, isn't it? Not to sort of despise the the patience of the lord and the knowledge that we're we're given.

Alright.

There we go.

So that's Flaterer, atheist, enchanted ground, ignorance.

We are that was the close of that chapter, and the next chapter is entitled the celestial city.

We gonna get them, unlikely, I think.

But, yeah, do keep joining.

We'll have a couple more of these and I hope you've been enjoying them.

If you've liked them and found them useful, do recommend them, share them, tell your friends about them, and, do write to us if there's anything, that you'd like us to to deal with or to answer.

But until next time, we'll see you then.

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