The Pilgrims Progress

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Welcome to the Cornerstone Church Podcast.

Thanks for tuning in for another week.

We are working our way through the Pilgrim's progress.

We've loved going through it so far.

This classic Christian Brooke by John Bunion, which has helped Christians for decades to follow the lords and, to avoid some of the pitfalls and temptations and danger.

Every Christian.

We hope that you've, enjoyed it.

If you've missed any of the episodes, you can catch up on the back catalog, cornerstonechurchkingston.

org.

You can find various other resource is there too.

My name's Tom.

I'm 1 of the pastors at the church.

I'm here with Rory.

Hello.

Pete.

Hello.

Also pastors, and we are here also with Adam.

We've got a new a new in the studio to help us with our with our sound and our tech and our editing.

So if the quality of these things improves dramatically, you now know why that is.

In our last episode, Christian and Hopeful, were in embroiled, engaged in a in a long conversation with, with what Bunion would call false professors.

These people who claim to be Christians on their way to heaven but actually they're they're hypocrites and charlatons and fakes, and they're exposed for what they are.

So we met talkative and 1 or 2 others.

And then they went through a a a a place of ease where they were able to just rest and refresh themselves a bit.

And now they're about to face their next their next challenge.

And so perhaps either Pete or Rory, you can you can kind of just take us into that and what what do they see next Well, they they come to, a little hill.

Not hill is called Luka, which is which means money basically, but sort of filthy, filthy.

Well, you always talk I don't know whether people do nowadays, but it was always filthy, Luca, wasn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

It's money and things of this world and, you know, gold and that sort of stuff, isn't it? Yeah.

That's that's I think I think it's it's normally got with with bad means.

Yeah.

Unrighteous wealth is kind of you've you've it's the sort you'd gain by fiddling the books or having dishonest scales or, you know, gambling at other people's expense or what, you know, it's ill gotten gain, isn't it? It's that type of thing.

But it's like I think even slightly bigger than that, that it is the whole of this world, isn't it? And it's attraction and it's glitziness and And this is a a silver mine, isn't it? So it's beautifully shiny, and it's got all kinds of attractions to it.

Right.

Yes.

So the problem the problem with the hill, obviously, within the hill, the silver mines there, but pilgrims come to it to have a look at it to they've sort of get distracted by it.

And what can often happen is that when they get too close to the edge, and this shows us that they're it's a bit dodgy money.

The deceitful ground breaks and they fall in it.

And sometimes that can kill them, and other times it might just maim them.

But if they are maimed, pill, Bunion says that they're never free of the influence of the mind's wound until their dying day.

And so it really takes a hold of them and not really escape the grip of of Luca.

Mean, that's that's interesting.

You know, what what do you think he means by that? You know, because because, you know, he's saying if you if you've been in involved in in dodgy money business, you can never get over that.

Well, you can.

I I think you can definitely you can definitely change or be changed by the lord and begin a a new life and start treating wealth properly.

But it might be that this side of heaven you know, if if you've gotten money or gotten rich off other people's expense and you've mistreated and used and abused people, there may be consequences that sort of follow you in all of this life, you know, people either trying to get you back or take you to court or get justice or they wanna follow you and hound you and get you back in some way.

So you might leave a trail of destruction behind you that even if your own heart has been changed, you know, unfortunately, in this fallen world, the stuff that we do has ripples isn't it? And and you may not be able to people may may not just trust you even though you are now trustworthy.

Yeah.

Because there's there's that, isn't there? It was 1 of the things about being an elder in the church.

Is that you're you're not to have been levered money.

A lover of money into this sort of filthy luker stuff.

And I guess even if you've changed on that, it's it's still if people remember that you've been fraudulent or you've you've done dodgy deals.

It's quite hard for for you then to be an elder in the church, even if there is change it in you there, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm gonna do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was gonna use an illustration, but I don't think it will so never mind.

Yep.

So that's the that's the imagery.

And, you know, it's quite visual, isn't it? So you can you can imagine you know, going, you know, if you're on a cliff top walk, by the sea or something like that and you you, you know, you sometimes see those signs.

Don't you that say keep away from the edge of the cliff or unstable cliff edge.

Don't go any further.

And we all know those warnings.

To stay away.

And yet there is something heady about being right on the edge of the cliff.

Isn't it? You can look down and you feel slightly dizzy you know, looking how far down it is, and you wanna be able to get the best view.

And so there's something attractive about it.

I I I was on beachy head with with Anne and my wife, and It's just like that.

You've got the signs there.

Yeah.

And beachy head is where people often go to commit suicide.

But there was a whole load of there was a whole group of of, young young people sitting right on the edge.

And it was so horrible.

I couldn't even look at it because he just thought, That could go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's it.

So that's that's the that's the location, but there's also somebody at the top who's really recommending that pilgrims come over and have a look at this thing.

And, so he he's trying to persuade people.

So so who who is he and what what's he saying? Well, his his name is Dimas, which is a character in the Bible, and he's calling people to come and have a because it it is beautiful, isn't it? There's some there's in 1 sense, there's nothing wrong in just having a look, but his whole whole point is to come and have a look and you'll fall in, isn't it? So Yeah.

There's this I mean, it's interesting.

He's described as a gentleman And it's he sounds quite, like, a friendly bloke.

He says, hello, friends.

Coming come and have a look at this.

I wanna see something.

Come and have a look at this.

This little, this remarkable thing.

And and also the there's sort of a truth in it in 1 sense.

If you get some of this this this money, you'll be able to provide for yourself.

So he's giving, sort of, he's he's painting over evil, isn't he? But he's saying, you know, you know, there's sensableness here.

You're you you won't have to rely on people.

You're provide for yourself isn't that a good sort of godly thing to do? Take responsibility for yourself and and that sort of stuff.

So it looks good, doesn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

And Dimas is a is a character in the in the new testament who we don't know loads about except that, we're told in to Timothy that Demus was a 1 time a companion of Paul's and had some share in the apostolic ministry, but chose to forsake Paul and Paul's gospel, because he preferred the world or because he fell in love with the world.

So what the circumstances were around that, we we don't quite know, but there was something in his life that made him think, you know, this way of the cross and this message of the cross is actually not bringing the sort of the comfort the wealth for security that I won, and he he'd fell in love with what the world could offer.

And that seemed to be a very, you know, troubling and upsetting thing for Paul that Dimas left him because he loved the world.

And so that's who this guy is, you know, maybe at 1 time, he in fact, does it say that he was a pilgrim at what Well, we're still on the run-in the book, but obviously, obviously, he was a companion of Paul.

You see him in in various books sending greetings to other churches, but I think you know, you look Paul Paul lands of Imprison for the for the gospel, and I don't think Demas wants that.

He forsakes him dessert.

So many loves the world, and the things of the world are are are often to do with riches.

And so that's possibly why bunions decided to use Demus' someone luring people to have a look at, Luca.

And he's now a salesman for the world, isn't it? Yeah.

He's a so so that's the message that they hear.

And hopeful is initially quite excited about this, isn't he? So, I think Bunion says his eyes went wide, and he just says, let's go have a look.

You know, so, it hasn't taken, you know, a great deal to persuade him to to to go.

But this is where, we need Christian friends in life, isn't it? People who don't have friends, you know, often go wrong because we we need friends to say, brother, we are not we're not going.

Yeah.

And and and here's why it's called stir a step is the original.

Let's not stir a step but keep, but still keep on our way.

Yeah.

I mean, could Christian calls him out, calls Demus out? Yeah.

Doesn't he? And and, this is dangerous.

And Demus Trust said, well, not very dangerous except for the careless.

Yeah.

But the strange thing is he blushes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, because he knows he's lying at that point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So so Christian is not gonna is not gonna be, it's not gonna be persuaded.

And then he and then and then he has a a bit of a kind of shouting match with with Demist, doesn't he? What what else does he say? How how does what are some of the points in the conversation there? Well, I I think it's quite interesting that, our Christian Christian goes into Hyval says we're not when there's no way we're going down this line, if we're we're we're rejecting this.

Yeah.

Hopeful actually looks over his shoulder behind him.

I mean, that's gonna be important later on.

But, actually, he looks back and he thinks, well, think about mister buy in last time.

Remember mister buy in loved things in the world in whatever way the world takes you.

He goes that way.

He thinks mister buy in and his friends they're surely gonna go for that invitation.

Christian's aware.

He's that's why he says to he says to Demas, I'm not going there.

I know.

I've heard of first place.

People get slain here.

People, settle with the treasures in the the mind rather than the treasures, heads in in glory.

And so hopeful they can see, actually, if Mister Buen sees this, he's he's going for it, really.

And that's exactly what happens, isn't it? So then when they're a bit further on, they turn around and they see they see buy ins, and they are they go straight away, don't they? I mean, as soon as they hear about it, they're off.

And then there's 1 of these really.

It and it's quite a haunting line, isn't it? That they are no one's quite sure what happens to them.

But all we can say is they were never again seen on the way.

No.

And it's like, oh, yeah.

They've met their, you know, they've met their end, and it's, it's, you know, it's killed them.

The love of money has killed them or the the kind of interest in money.

And, you know, we're told that about this this place, aren't we? So the mileage got an unstable cliff edge.

But it's also got these noxious fumes rising out from deep within the pit of the earth, which are which are toxic and poisonous, and I guess lull you put you asleep and then like carbon monoxide, you'd never wake up again.

You know? Well, it's like those, those sort of fly traps, isn't it? Where the fly comes, you know, you've got those sort of buckets with juice in her, the sort of digest dig digested, juices in the in in in the actual plant.

But the but around the edge is this sweet sort of alcoholic stuff that makes the fly you know, drunk and then slips, and then it it goes.

So that's exactly what's going on here, isn't it? But I I I love as well.

I can I know that's that's what how they see what happens to my end, but when Demers can, persistently calls to Christian and hopeful Christians absolutely having no doubt of it? He calls about it.

He says, look, I'm I know who you are because he hasn't actually said his name here.

He says, you're Dimas.

Yep.

And you are actually in the enemy.

And I I'm I I know that you're trying to lure us with the things of this world, but if we do that, then we will be ashamed by the king.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and he's he he he says, you you know, he goes into scripture, doesn't they? And say Gohazi, which is an old testament thing we'd come back to is your great grandfather and judas, your father.

Yes.

I mean, it's pretty straight stuff, isn't it? So, Judith, obviously, sold Jesus for for money.

Under handedly, and look what happened look what happened to to him.

He he he hanged himself.

Yeah.

So that's the that's the fumes, isn't it? It it looked good.

30 pieces of silver, you know, again, it's, you know, it's exciting to get.

And then of course, in the end, it pro didn't produce anything and he hanged himself.

Yeah.

And that's 1 of the warnings we have in the Bible, isn't it? That it's not money itself that is the root all kinds of evil, but the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.

And I think if your heart is is with money and not with the lord, if that's the god you're serving, then there's nothing that you won't do in the end in order to serve your god.

There's nothing that you won't sacrifice, even your best friend, you'd be willing to trade out just for a small amount of money if it's gonna get you on in this life.

And and so that's the thing.

When money is a god, you'll do anything to appease it serve it, get its blessing, and that's what Judith did.

And, and we know in the story of the gospel, certainly, that that Judith didn't just sort of fall at the end.

He was he was into money all the way through.

He was the treasurer.

We know that he was taking stuff out and he was you know, lying about, being concerned for the poor and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

So this was a a a thing that was, you know, taking him over, and it was it was slipping around the edge, and he finally falls in the silver mine.

Hangs himself.

And so and so Christian really goes for him and says, you know, your father's a treat to hang himself as you say, you deserve no better rewards.

And then later on, he's at least, be assured that when we have an audience with the king, we will tell him of your behavior.

So we'll we'll speak against you for this.

Trying to trying to lure us away.

Yep.

There's a real there is a real warning to those people who And a bit of he calls his great grandfather, Kajase.

Let's have let's have a chat about that because who's Ghazi? Well, Ghazi is the servant of of Elijah, the prophet of God.

And again, he's revealed to be a lover of money because, Elijah, if you know the story, essentially heals name and of his leprosy name in office, Elijah Money, and and and and Elijah refuses that money because he it's a great skinny shares of it's undeserved favor.

It's not paid for Yep.

Your healing.

But Ghazi thinks, well, now we we want some money here.

So after naming leaves, he chases after naming, he says, actually naming, we've we've changed our mind on the money offer.

And if you can give us someone.

He said the prophet had gone and changed his mind.

It was a lie, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

And then he comes back and it's such a good story.

He's a lie.

She's like, oh, where have you been? Gahazi and Gahazi make something off in a lie.

She's like, I know, by the way, you're trying to lie to the prophet of god.

And so he struck he struck with what name and hearts, and he's he becomes a leper himself.

Yeah.

So it's a great story, and it just shows Bunnions, you know, wealth of biblical knowledge, doesn't it? That he loved the Bible and lived in the Bible and that these stories, he's able to bring to bear on all of these different themes.

So like Judith, Gaza serves as a warning against against that.

So they so that they like, with that kind of said and that judgment pronounced upon Demus.

They they they move on, don't they? And let's move to the to the next scene that we wanna we wanna cover unless you unless you feel we've missed anything there.

So it's it's just applying, well, it's just applying that to ourselves, isn't it? Because that's what, you know, he's he's trying to do here.

You know, we have got to be you see, we we we we do think riches are are gonna bring blessing, don't we? And there's just this warning isn't it? You've gotta be careful.

You've got to be careful.

And Jesus, some of Jesus hardest things, isn't it? It is, you know, you know, the things of this world, you know, what what what's it in the parable of the sower, the the actual, 1 of the It's seed of money, isn't it? 1 of the weeds that's gonna choke you to death Yeah.

It's the receipt of money.

So the trouble is, you know, we're it's money all around us, isn't it? And there's Luca all around us and we So we really, really have to be careful when we go into this world, because because we can use money that's the trouble.

It's a very useful thing.

And and it's and it's very helpful.

And and there's not anything wrong with it.

But we can fall in love with it.

Mhmm.

Far too quickly that I think that's what we've gotta be aware of.

And I think in particular where where we in this in in the UK were so rich.

Yeah.

It's more like the the noxious fumes, so we don't even realize we're loving it, and we don't realize we're depending on it.

But that's the issue.

It's like, who is your god? You know, is it, is it god? Are you relying on god? Yeah.

Is it is he the answer to your issues, or is it, oh, I just can I can just pay for that and and rely on my money? So I think I think this is really relevant to us particularly because we have so much of it, and I think we can grow numb to the fact that we rely on it.

But it's, as you say, it's really interesting.

1 of the things that I was struck by when we did, our series in Luke a few years back was just how many times Jesus has a go at money, and it's all throughout.

And so it's so clearly something that is easy and ideal.

And, we've gotta be really, really careful with it.

And James does, doesn't he? So James, you know, sort of warns us of money and and those that come into the church that are rich and because they're rich they're they're to do people, aren't they? They're the the important people.

And he it's funny how James does it because he turns it around And he seems to suggest that the poorer people are the blessed people and the rich people are not the blessed people.

Yeah.

And I think he's trying to show Be careful.

Yeah.

Be very careful if you're rich.

Well well, I remember sitting in a in a sermon in Oxford a few years back and the preacher re just really, highlighted that exact thing to us in in that he said, more people withstand the trial of poverty and persecution than the trial of money.

In other words, like, you think about what what what happens when people have lots of money, they go away from Christ, whereas those in poverty and persecution and hardship, they have to clutch to Jesus.

So having money is a try.

I I think so.

I think we need to say that more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In that actually, don't see money as just a comfortable thing.

See it as a trial.

Yeah.

And a test, and are you gonna are you gonna rely on it, or are you gonna rely on it? We're all full for this because we we can say things like, well, if the church had you know, if we had 3,000,000, we could buy that place down the road.

And then we could be doing more for god.

It's it's it's so easily to to to slip around this this mine, isn't it? So, yeah.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Right.

Well, they move on from their end, and then they see, and, Roy, you made the reference earlier to, Hopeful's looking back, at the mine.

And that that that becomes quite significant now, doesn't it? So then they move on and then they see this this statue, don't they? This white statue with an engraving on the head, which initially they can't they can't read until Christian has a closer look.

But it, but it's a statue of a of a woman.

And, they discover, don't they? Or, I can't remember how they find out that it's lot's wife.

Yeah.

Well, they see they see that it's the shape of a pillow and and hopeful sees an inscription, but it can't quite read says he's not, he's not a scholar or enough of a scholar to be able to read it.

So Christian examines it, and he's trying to trying to work out what it says, and it says Amber lot's wife, isn't it? Yeah.

I remember lot's wife.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is the this is the story from the old testament when, when lot and his family are being rescued from sodom.

So the lord is going to rain fiery sulfur upon sodom and Gamora for its sin and, and yet in his kindness, the lord has determined to rescue lot and his family, and his daughters from this place.

And so the angels come or the messengers come and they grab them by the hand and they say get out of here, there's places for it, you know.

And so they and so they they leave you know, they leave and they're running onto the planes of Zohr, I think it is, and and that the fiery sulfur is about to rain down, you know, such such a dramatic story.

And and lots wife, in that moment just turns back, you know, and kind of arcs her head back over her shoulder and looks at this city that she's just been rescued from.

And in that moment, she turns she turns to a pillar of salt.

And she's she's stat I mean, Jesus as well in in the in the gospel says remember lot's wife and, she kind of stands as a as a warning for all who would look back longingly at the world they've been saved from.

And that's really what's going on there.

So it's not just that she kind of is thinking, oh, I wonder you know, how bad it's gonna be, the looking back is a sort of a heart divided in a way.

It's a sense of do I really want this new life with god? Do I wanna start again in a new land? Or, actually, you know, that was, you know, it's a bit like pliable in 1, you know, it's not, oh, yeah, it's alright.

But, you know, And so there's a heart issue there, and that's what's being warned against.

And and and and hopeful knows then you see, because he he he thinks, oh my goodness, you know, that that that should be me.

You know, that that could have been me, because when I look back at that mine, that was what was in my heart as well.

I was thinking, have we made the right call here? Like, because it may be really good.

And maybe this would help us get on a bit in the journey, and there's a sort of lust for it in his heart.

And he says to Christian, doesn't he? Why, like, Yeah.

Why have I been, you know, why when she was turned to salt when the same sin is alive and well in my heart? Have I been spared? You know, what is that about? And, may have a conversation.

He, I mean, he sees himself even worse than that, really.

I mean, Christian says, this is a great site.

You know, we've just gone through that.

What a timely sight to remind us you know, what happened here.

Yeah.

And then and Hopeful's really, really repented about it.

And he says, there's not much difference between us.

In fact, she only had a glance back Yeah.

I had a real desire to go in and see this mine.

And so I think he's blown away.

What is, he sees his own sin.

He feels that, but he's then blown away by the grace that he wasn't, as he says, petrified as as lot's wife.

Isn't this exactly how we should hear the word of God there? It it you you you w we don't sit in judgment of lots we see our own hearts.

And then we say, thank you, lord, that you've given that as an example, for me to see the grace of Christ.

So those 2 things are always always good, aren't they? To see our own sin, but actually see the grace of Christ that that he's taken away that sin.

And that's how we should be listening, isn't it? So it shouldn't be offended at the lot's y thing.

We should be Yeah.

But gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, she deserved it.

I deserved it even more, but the grace of Christ has saved me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, there's another story in the new testament about Anna Nys and Sephira in the early church.

And when things, when the gospel's really taking hold in the world and people are being generous and they're giving to the church.

These 2 want to kind of give the impression that they're being super generous.

But they actually lied to the apostles and they lied to the Holy Spirit about what they're doing and how much they're giving.

And it's nothing it's nothing wrong with how much they were giving It's that they lied in order to give the impression that they were being really generous when they weren't, and they're struck dead in the early church.

I mean, they both of them dropped down and you know, great fear comes upon the whole community.

And and you do think of that and you think, yeah, well, you know, that that sin has been alive and well in my own life.

You know, I've done that.

I've done that, but the lord has preserved me for some reason.

And so now why that is? Well, that's down to the sort of the mystery of god's grace and providence.

And, you know, we can't always say, it was them there and not there, but I think you're right.

Like, it should make us think if he wanted to, god could have exposed me publicly for all kinds of things and finished me, you know, but he hasn't.

And so I'm gonna put this to death.

By god's help.

You know, while I while he's preserved me at the very least, I wanna do what I can to squash this in my own life.

Well, and Christian's really helpful because he says, let's let's, you know, take stock of it as you say and then see how we can profit for it.

And I I love it because he says, you know, lots of wife escaped 1 judgment.

She escaped the the burning sulfur of, sodom, yet she did not, she she had a different judgment.

And so we've gotta be kept, stepped step carefully and then Mhmm.

It's brilliant because hopeful then riffs off that really and says, yeah, that this is a real warning that we should shun Hurston and and understand that judgment comes and then and and mentions cora dated in a by room, from the story of numbers, which is a a amazing story.

It's a scary story where they oppose god's profit in Moses, and, you know, pick your side, basically.

And the and and if you know, guards for me will be okay if guards not for for me, them, then what will happen is the earth will split into half and they'll be swallowed up by the earth, them, and their families.

And And so I think they they they're they're able to reflect on when people oppose gods and have sinned judgment comes upon them.

Not always straight away.

No.

But sometimes there are moments where there is judgment, and I must take heed of the judgments on Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because if I'm gonna treat sin lightly Yeah.

This can be this can be That's right.

And this does happen, doesn't it? In ministry life, you know, and it is a caution to us that they're there might be in any congregation, say 15 or 20 people who have the same sort of habitual sin that they're fighting, but sometimes just 1 of them that something public happens, doesn't it? And it and it comes out.

And, you know, why exactly it was that person and were they worse than anyone else? I don't think it's necessarily helpful to think like that, but I I just think the lord sometimes there is a public revealing, and it's it's a it's a is a shot to the congregation, isn't it, to say, look, yeah, come on.

We've all got to take this seriously.

We've all we we can't mess around with it because this is what's gonna happen.

You know, Yeah.

I love the way, I mean, absolutely.

I mean, Christian is trying to work out, you know, how is it that that running away from judgment, like lot's wife, and yet you you would turn your heart towards the place that's being judged, and he he's trying to work that out.

And he says, how how how could I compare this, you know? And there's this lovely pictures that he's so bunion, but of I I it's like he says it's like a a pick pocket you know, in a in a in a in a judgment case.

There's the judge judging someone for stealing, and yet there's the pick pocket.

In the courtroom sort of pick, you know, picking the pocket.

And then he says, it it's it's it's like, someone stealing purses when, someone's being hanged.

And I guess that was a real thing in Bunnian day, you could go to see a hanging because a person had been stealing.

Yeah.

And there's the there's the pick pocket there's Yeah.

You know, doing that very sin because because we're not taking the judgment seriously.

No.

No.

So the whole point is that we are to take it seriously.

And so when we look at lot's wife, it's not oh, what a what an ugly woman she was, what a what a sort of That's that's right, isn't it? And you and you hear it just in our common language, you know, whenever something happens in culture, like perhaps there's a there's a terrible crime committed in an area or there's a murder or something, and they interview some of the local residents you know, what they'll often say is I just can't believe, you know, this is a good area of this.

You know, I it I can't believe it's happened on my doorstep.

This sort of thing never happens around here.

And, you kinda think, why why would you presume that? But, and of course, it does happen, doesn't it? And these are the things we need to remember, like, we may think it could never happen to us.

But it could.

It could.

And, so there's a moment where Hopeful is just saying, my goodness, that that should be me there.

And, and it's not, So, so then they that that's it, isn't it? Then they they kind of leave behind the, the statue.

And then the next part, and then they have, and we we probably won't cover it, you know, at any length, but they they then they have another sort of period of refresh then they they they find these waters, the rivers of the water of of life, and they're able to drink and rest and refresh.

And so the law is very good, isn't he? And after every trial and team.

There's often a time just to enjoy god's grace and drink and re refresh.

And so next time we'll, we'll we'll we'll, yeah, we'll see what happens next.

Thanks for tuning in.

And, as I said at the start, Cornerstonechurchkingston.

org.

You can go on the website and find other podcasts and blogs and sermons, And, any feedback that you've got about this, do do write in and tell us what you think or what you'd like us to cover.

And, we'd we'd appreciate any any of that.

So, yeah, see you next time.

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