The Pilgrims Progress

Transcript (Auto-generated)

Right.

Thanks for tuning in, everybody, for another podcast.

We're carrying on in this Brook, the Pilgrim's progress that we've been working through.

I'm here with Pete and Rory.

Hello.

Hello.

I'm gonna you might hear children in the background.

It might be worth saying Yeah.

We're we're recording from the hub, and, there's lots there's lots going on around us as a a Monday tots group going on.

So if you hear any, noises, that's what that is.

But we are, as I said, we're doing the Pilgrim's progress, and thanks for tuning in.

And, we are we we looked last time, with Christian and hopeful we were on the road and we we saw 2 main scenes.

They were they were tempted to go to this this mine or to this hill called filthy Luka, which was all about, deceitful money and deceitful riches in this age and how a temptation or a pull towards them can lead us away from the road.

And then there was the warning about lot's wife who looked back longingly at the treasures of this world.

And was left as a pillar of salt and she stands there, as a kind of warning across the ages about not to be double minded.

And so we've moved on now and we're we're we're we've gone through a period of of sort of relative ease and comfort that that that they had together.

And now they're about to face the next trial.

So, how how does, where does this scene begin then? Well, they're they're walking by a river and they've been blessed.

Haven't they? And their feet are is comfortable and the lord's given them, you know, healing for their feet, and that sort of, that sort of stuff.

And it's it's it's a beautiful time, isn't it? A fellowship and comfort.

But then as they're walking along, the, the ground gets a little bit tougher and their feet are, feeling a bit sorer.

And so they're now sort of thinking about the discomfort that they're going through.

And then they come across this, this, style, and there's another path that runs alongside, but it it's it's a sort of comfortable path.

It's called by path meadow.

So there's sort of it's smoother and there's grass, I guess, and it's cooling on the feet and it's it's not so gritty and not so painful.

So it's it's a it's a very and it runs alongside, you know, like you get when you go on the country You see the style.

It it feels like it's going in the same direction.

Christian looks and sees it's going in the same direction.

So it's very tempting to think about going over the style.

And Christian is very much tempted in that.

That's right.

And it begins in the heart, doesn't it? So it's interesting how a Bunion says where for stillers, they went on, they wished for a better way.

So already in their hearts, they're thinking, I wish this was easier.

I wish we could avoid some hardship.

And so the departure from the way has already begun, hasn't it? Because they're beginning to wish for it in their hearts.

And so when they see it, it's it's much harder to resist because the pull is basically there.

And so hopeful puts up a little bit of resistance and and and is wondering whether they should be doing that because it might lead them wrong, but Christian says, look, that's very unlikely because as you say, they run alongside.

So, hopefully, it's persuaded and then they go over the style onto this new by park, this new rose, and then they aspire a man, called vain confidence, Rory, what's he what's he all about vain confidence? Well, clues in the name, sort of empty confidence empty promise, really, isn't it? And so they ask they ask for incontinence, what what where does bipath bipath meadow, lead to, and he obviously says to the celestial gate confidently, and so they and and that that for Christian is a seller.

That's that's it.

We can go follow the inconvenience, and we'll still, be able to get to the celestial city because, you know, VA confidence has just told us that that is the way it goes, but it's vague confidence.

Although, I, essentially, I don't think they ask you his name, do they? None.

Which I think is the first bit of advice, isn't it? Before you take advice, you wanna find out who you're taking advice from.

And so they don't ask his name.

If they ask his name, I think they might say hold it.

Should we be confident in he's saying because his name is very confident.

Yeah.

So I think that is right, isn't it? You you don't just go to anyone.

And I think that, you know, a lot of people do this, don't they? They they go to the person that they they want to confirm, yes, them in their way, don't they? That's often what people do.

They seek out council Yeah.

To say, yeah.

No.

Go on.

Keep going.

The itching is.

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

A council to to confirm the other way that that's not the hard way.

No.

No.

That's right.

Yeah.

They're going the hard way, which they've been told to do.

They stick to the king's path.

Yeah.

Oh, no.

We I need someone to tell me and affirm me in my wrong thinking.

In my wrong thinking.

And that happens all the time in church doesn't it? People are always seeking out, vain confidence, really, although, no, you'll be alright.

No, that's fine.

You know, yeah, just listen to me that, you know, or go the easy route.

You don't wanna go that route.

It's too hard.

And what, you know, people are they're a bit fundamentalist or they're that, you know, that sort of stuff.

It's very, very easy to go the easy route, isn't it? That's right.

Yeah.

And so vein confidence is here.

And he I think he has 1 of the shortest careers in the whole book.

He appears, and then he's straight down a pit.

So there's a there's a deep pit which the prince of the grounds has Doug in order to catch people like him.

And so here he is so confident and and yet he's confident in all the wrong things, and he falls down this hole.

And dashed into pieces.

Now Christian and his fellow heard him fall, and and then they they sort of cry out, you know, you're okay.

Where are you? And they can't hear any response.

Just a faint groaning from the bottom of the pit.

And so that's, you know, that's a big that's a big shock for them.

And then things start to get worse.

So vain confidence is fallen into this pit.

But then, the clouds come over and it begins to rain and thunder and to, to the w the weather really turns on them, basically, and the water is rising up all around them.

And it looks like they're going to drown and be flash flooded, to death, really.

And that's when they realize, or that's when hopeful at least realizes, oh, that I had kept on my way.

So this wasn't this was a mistake Yeah.

In order to cut to come here.

So that's that's that that has dawned on them now, hasn't it, that this was wrong? I think Christian realizes, I think I might have made a little mistake here, and I've led my friend in the wrong way, and and hopeful definitely knows.

He says I've only had stayed on path.

Why did I why did I listen to Christian on this 1? I know that this you know, this is the first sort of time you get that there there could be.

I mean, there isn't in the end, I know, but there could be sort of tensions between them, which is hopeful is almost saying, you know, I knew this was wrong.

Yeah.

I just followed you because you're an older brother.

Yes.

I try to I try to warn you gently.

Yeah.

But you're more mature than me.

And there could have been a separation here, but there's lovely forgiveness, isn't there? And and because Christian realizes, no, I was wrong, and I I've offended you, and I brought you into danger.

And I I'm I'm really sorry about that.

So there's lovely fiction fellowship going on here, isn't it? Even though, you know, Christians made a mistake.

Yeah.

A great perspective from Hopeful as well, because Hopeful says, like, I I do forgive you Yeah.

And I know that this will work out for our good.

Yeah.

And then we we've we've abandoned the way, but actually the lord hasn't abandoned us.

Yeah.

And he works all things for our good.

That's why he's called hopeful, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

So so they try then together to make to go back, don't they? And, Christian Christian says, I think perhaps in order to sort of a tone for his his error.

Says, why don't you let me go first? Yes.

And I'll lead us back to the path.

Yeah.

And hopeful sort of says, you know, I don't know whether you're in the right frame of mind to be leading us at the moment.

Perhaps you should let me go up the front because I've got a slightly clear ahead this time than you.

In other words, if you've proven you can't read a map, you're not gonna lead the expedition anymore.

I I'm gonna lead it for a while.

And so that's a really wise thing, isn't it? That hopeful does.

He's totally forgiven him, and they know that this kind of thing will happen on the way, but he says, look, I just, I think for now, let me lead because I've got my head together a bit on this, you know, which which is really good, isn't it? Yeah.

It's it's it's just lovely Christian Fellowship there, isn't it? Yeah.

Okay.

So so what happens then? So they they oh, yes.

They're so they're trying to trying to go back pouring.

It's dark.

They're tired.

They go under some they find a little bit of shelter to try and get some sleep, and then in the morning, perhaps start going back to the style where they can get back to the way.

And and there's lightning and then, the day breaks, and there's this this, they realize they're in the land of the castle, don't they, doubting castle? Well, they wake up to to face.

And there's a bloke called giant that's there.

Yeah.

That's what they're waking up by.

They confronted with giant despair.

Oh, they wake up.

Yeah.

Yep.

So he's marching around on his property, isn't he? He's going up and down his fields and he sees them and, that sees them asleep.

And then with a with a with a grim voice, he bids them awake and he asks them the question which we've seen just so many times in this story, who they are and what they're doing on the ground.

And and sort of where they've come from, really.

So, Bunion is always seemingly wanting these characters to tell their story and to see they fit in to to, to to who they are and what they're doing and and so on.

And then and then he uses them or he says, look, you have this night trespassed on me by trampling in and lying on my grounds, and therefore, you must go along with me.

And so this is pretty desperate because they've got this great hulking beast over them, who has accused them rightly of trespass thing.

And has now wrapped his giant oga fingers around them and he's he's taken them off to doubting castle.

So that that's that's what happens, isn't it? It throws them in this dungeon, and and they're there from Wednesday morning till Saturday night without 1 bit of bread or drop of drink light.

So this is this is despair, isn't it? Yeah.

I mean, you can hardly get more despairing than that.

And it's a picture, isn't it, of depression and, brokenness and, no hope, and they're off the way.

They're off the the the the path.

And yeah.

Christian Christian there particularly feels this.

Yeah.

So in that state in the darkness, that's where he feels his sorrow more and more.

So it says his sorrows multiplied.

Particularly so, because it was his advice it had taken down this root.

Yep.

And so he probably feels his sin more than than anyone else, and then then hopeful.

And so I think he out of them both is is feeling that mental anguish.

And it and it's interesting, isn't it? Because there isn't here, there isn't really repentance here yet.

It's there.

There's there's there's and there's certainly no prayer, and there's there's there's not sort of looking to god in this situation.

They're just feeling.

And that's what people feel like, isn't it? There there there there is no light.

They don't there is no truth coming into them.

It's just as if truth is sucked away, isn't it? Yeah.

So they get they get taken into the this dungeon.

And, then we're told about giant despair's wife who's called diffidence, which means shy or retiring.

Or or not very forthcoming or confident, perhaps.

And she really is the mastermind of the operation from now on.

So she never really confronts the pilgrims but she has lots of sort of bedtime pillow talk with your giant spare and tells him what he ought to be doing with these new prisoners that he's got hold of.

And, her first bit of advice is, well, she asks him where have these ones come from? And then they have a little conversation.

And then she recommends that in the morning giant despair go down to the cells and to beat them mercilessly, with his, with his grievous Crabtree Cudgel.

I think a Crabtree.

I think crack I think Crab trees are all very sort of gnarled and Okay.

And twisted.

So the cudgel is like a twisted.

It's got, you know, it's gonna have a lump on the end of it.

Yeah.

So that's what he does.

He goes and beats them and then leaves them just to, wallow in their misery, basically.

And so the the the the despair and the depression they've already fallen into, is now just being there's no relief.

I think that's the idea, isn't it? They're they're being beaten and their wounds are increasing and the darkness is growing.

And it's a kind of a picture of, of hopelessness, isn't it? And so that's that's their 1st day.

And then the next night, differences talking with giant despair again.

And what's the, what's the next bit of council? That she gives there, or what's what's the next stage? She she tells, giant despair to to recommend that Christian and Hopeful take their lives rather than then, keep up being beaten, mercilessly.

And so that's what he does.

He says, look, you can you can pick your way out, Next day, look.

You can do knife, noose, poison, you know, but surely it's better to take your own lives than to keep on feeling this depression.

And it's, and it's at this point that we learn that giant despair has has a sort of, an issue that falls into fit particularly on in sunny weather, which is quite interesting, isn't it? So where there's light and warmth and truth, it puts him into a fit.

So we now suddenly see there's a sort of fault here.

That might help them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So giant despair gives them this advice from diffidence and, then they they have a conversation about what to do, really.

And it's a you know, this is a this is a dark moment, isn't it? And, you know, when they've gone off the road in the past, you know, sometimes there's, you know, there's there's lots of you know, difficulties they run into or, you know, they fall asleep or get punished or something, but this is the dark night of the soul, isn't it? And they've they've left the road and they've walked away from the hopeful promises of god.

They've cut themselves off from god, really.

Yeah.

And that they're not praying and they're they're they're they're all this sort of, conversation is pretty godless at this stage, and they're now wondering what to do because on the 1 hand, if if this is what life is now gonna be like for them, just just day after day of no food, no drink being beaten, well, then it would it be better just to make an end of our lives, you know, and and just to finish it now? So this is a desperate state that they're Yeah.

I mean, to even be considering this, is is a big Well, I think particularly Christians considering it.

Yeah.

I think that's why Right.

That's what I was just gonna say in the in the sort of the original, the old sort of language, they're quoting Joe.

Yes.

So so they're sort of quoting the pie, but if you like, but without light.

And it, and it says my soul chooses chooses strangling rather than life.

And the grave is more easy for me than this dungeon.

Yeah.

So he's really at the pits, isn't he? He's really at the bottom.

Yeah.

So so he's saying to Hope, or should we should we do as the giants told us to do.

And I think that's why hopeful such a great companion in this.

I know they're both in giant despair, but hopeful seems to have a more, like, the vision that that god's still there for him.

And so he says, no.

Hold on.

I know this I know this is a really dark place for us.

But let's just remember, the lord of the country to which we are going.

And he he has told us not to to, to, you know, in many sense, it's it's wrong to take life.

Yes.

And so, and that's that's our own lands as well.

So we can't listen to the giant giant despair.

We must we must listen to the lord of the lands.

Yeah.

In 1 sense, there's there's no relief but he does he quotes the commandment.

You shouldn't kill, and therefore, you shouldn't take your own life.

Yes.

And that's, again, that there is light in that.

Because that's the fundamental principle, that that that god has laid down.

So hopeful sort of on the, I don't know, you know, right down to the foundation, isn't it? The the the there's not much life, but I know that there's command, and we have to follow god's command however we feel Yeah.

And we shouldn't kill ourselves.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

And it's something that we, you know, we're I think we're rightly sensitive about in this age, but it's just worth us going through the council that hopeful offers there because I think he says As you say, we mustn't listen to giant despair.

Remember the lord of the country.

That's what he says, isn't it? And that's such a good bit of advice.

Remember the lord of the country.

And then he quotes that 6th commandment, doesn't it? You know, you shall not kill.

And then he talks about the judgment, the judgment that will come upon murderers and that they will face an eternal judgment.

And we've we've got to see things properly.

Now it's worth saying that this time, and certainly, I think still today in the Catholic in the Catholic church, to end your own life and to commit suicide is considered to be a a mortal, isn't a a more Yeah.

An unforgivable sin.

Because the last act you've done is murder.

Is that right? And you haven't been able to repent.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

And and we know from the Bible that that just doesn't stand up to scriptural teaching.

So the only unforgivable sin is the the is is to the reject the Christ who can atone for all of your sins.

So if you die not trusting Jesus as your savior, that is the unforgivable sin.

It's unbelief in the lord.

And so even in this sort of event, if somebody is so broken and is such despair that they do take their own lives, where we wanna say that that is a dreadful sin and and and that the effect of that on those that they love, is gonna be felt in a far reaching way.

And yet if that person was the lords, we know that even in that last act, they wake up to be embraced by the savior who's forgiven even that sin.

And so we don't we don't go and what it's wrong.

Well, it's it's very hard, isn't it? When you hear of a young person that's committed suicide, we all want to console people and say, he was depressed and he was, you know, he was taken over by giant despair and so forth and how sad it was and all of that.

But I do think sometimes at those funerals.

I know it's difficult, and it's a very difficult thing because you wanna sort of console people.

But I think we should really say, but this is a wrong act.

And that's what you're saying, he's saying here, isn't it? This is wrong.

You don't kill yourself.

You don't do It's not the right thing to do.

Be because you're gonna devastate your family.

Yes.

Yeah.

And interestingly, that the the reason that's important is not only because it's true, but that is actually part of how you save people Yes.

From it.

So you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we might think that the only way to really help people who are this desperate, it is just to bring the word of sort of comfort, which it is, but this he seems to think is a word of comfort.

Yeah.

Because it's reminding you of what's true and what serious and what god has said.

And it actually says with these words, hope for at present did moderate the mind of his brother.

Yeah.

So he kind of brings a bit of stability and moderates him a bit.

Oh, yeah.

No.

That that is right.

It's it's sort of like the foundation, isn't it? You can build on that.

Yeah.

So so you're not gonna listen to all the other stuff, but let's go to this law at least.

Yes.

And that that's quite a so good council, isn't it? And because he's and he's saying, look, I know you can't see it, but god is sovereign.

Yeah.

The lord is sovereign over this.

And, you know, we, you know, Now he's sovereign.

Let's look for an opportunity to escape this.

And and then I think he does keep using script He's a he says, let us be patient and continue to endure.

So he know he knows that the Christian life is a is a call to do those things.

I must be patient, and I must endure, and I then will look to escape this this situation and then continue on my on on the road to the celestial gate.

That's right.

And so giant, so, there's that discussion going on.

The giant despair goes back to his wife and there's more go and smack them in a bit more and show them dead bodies, isn't it? Is it is it that 1? That's not that comes a bit later on.

Does it? Yeah.

Because what happens is basically the giant goes back and stay to see whether they've taken his council.

And so he's hoping that he'll enter their cell and just find 2 dead bodies, basically.

But he's furious, very agitated, because they haven't listened to him and they're still alive.

And at this, we're told Christian and hopeful tremble greatly because they're in the presence of of him and his anger.

And then Christian falls into a swoon, which is a type of faint, really, and and comes to himself and then revisits the idea of taking his own life.

And thinks, well, maybe maybe we should.

I mean, but but then but that's where that's so helpful, isn't it? Cause these things are cyclical, aren't they? And you you go right down and you remember a promise and then you're up and then you're down again and then, you know, and then and then hopeful comes in again.

With a second bit of council, which is really encouraging him.

And he takes him out of the small slice of time that he's in at the moment Yes.

And gets him to remember his journey and what the lord has helped him with.

And he says, look, will you be defeated now when you could even take on Napoleon himself, the devil of hell? You went through the valley of the shadow of death and, you went through Vanity Fair and you're see your brother die there.

It's really good, isn't it? As you say, he's he's he's he's he's saying, let's let's go let's it it's like, let's remember when we were walking in the light.

Let's remember what it was like.

And it was tough, It was hard stuff, but we by the grace of god came through.

So it's a terrific bit of advice.

He goes, down to this foundational rule, don't kill yourself.

Now he's saying, look, in our experience Yeah.

In your experience, you know, it's fantastic.

Stick, isn't it? Yeah.

Really, really good.

Yeah.

And I think it's it's just worth bearing that in mind, isn't it? Whenever we're trying to help people who are feeling this depart despair or depression is to remind them of all that the lord has done for them and how useful they've been in their lives.

But even to hopeful because hopeful says I'm a weaker man than you, you know, by by Constitution.

I I I I'm weaker than you in in many ways.

And I followed you, and I admire you.

And, you know, it's that sort of stuff that's going on.

It really is good fellowship here.

Yeah.

And so so that that I mean, that's giant despair disappointed you can gain.

Yeah.

And so he goes back to his wife In bed with his wife.

Ahead with his wife.

Yeah.

She's saying that what's going on with these and he says they are sturdy ropes.

They choose rather to bear all hardship than to make away with themselves.

And then she says, right.

Okay.

We need to change our tactics then.

And she says, why don't you take them out to the graveyard and show them all the skulls and the bones of the pilgrims that have been in a similar place and you have destroyed.

So take them on a tour of the graveyard, basically, and and then that will really extinguish the last little flicker of hope in their lives.

That that will really do the job.

And so when the morning comes, the giant says it's a great idea.

He's very agreeable to his wife, you know, so he's wise in that regardless, and he, listens to her.

And then he goes again, and he takes them out, and he shows them as his wife had bid in them, all these all of these pilgrims who have who have dies.

And then what's what what happens after that? What's the Well, it goes back it goes back to bed first.

Actually.

Anyways, it's good.

It's bad with Mrs.

Dividends.

And then she says, well, maybe they've got some sort of, like, keys or or kick pocket a little off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that that they may may be able to skate with them and and try this for, oh gosh, I hadn't thought about that.

Yeah.

So you better go in Well, when we when I get off in the morning, I'll I'll make sure that they haven't haven't got these things.

Oh, yes.

And she so she says that because the reason they're hanging on Yeah.

Is because they might have a case.

That that that's Yeah.

Or or, you know, something to undo the locks.

They must know something we don't otherwise they kill themselves.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

And that, but that's when we come back to Hopeful and Krishna.

And this is, I think an amazing and and really important moment because on Saturday about midnight, they begin to pray.

Mhmm.

And they continue in prayer until almost That's the first time, isn't it? We, yeah, we haven't heard them pray yet.

And now they pray so so so in 1 sense, their their despair and their depression has been Godless for them, but, particularly Christian, I think, because they're not relying on on on the lord.

They're not that they're saying, we wanna we wanna sorry for ourselves without without guarding the picture.

And now they they come into prayer, and they're focusing on the lord again.

And the casting themselves on him.

What a great sort of, that's such a great thing that we've got, and we forget that we have prayer.

And that would help take us out of depression, I think, and remind us.

Like, we have 1 who who loves us in comfort zones.

And it's 1 of the songs that we sing, you know, quite often, isn't it? What a friend we have in Jesus, prayer meetings and stuff? And it's exactly that, isn't it? You know, the, the needless anxieties and the needless doubts and despairs that we shoulder all because we will not carry everything to god in prayer.

And that's that's so true, isn't it? That simple song that, lot lot, as you're saying, lots of the things that we carry, we do so needless Yeah.

Because if we would just turn them over to the lord, then we would know relief.

Yeah.

And so that's what they do.

And then and then Christian discovers that that he does, after all, have a key, in hidden, on his person that will, that will will take take them out of this, of the dungeons.

And this key is called Promise.

And he says, what a fool? What a fool I've been? That we've been lying here in this stinking dungeon when we could have been walking in liberty.

Yeah.

If only we had if only I'd remembered or found this key, and this key, of course, is the promises of god, isn't it? So, and there's a relationship between these 2 things you pray, and the pray and the is pray in the promises, and that's what's gonna lead you out.

And so they try the promises of god in the locks, and they all spring open.

And, wonderfully, they be free, but there's they're not gonna get out quite so easily.

What were the last door the last door they come to.

Yeah.

That the key, you know, is not quite turning, and then they and then it does turn, and then they open this door, and there's this creaking sound because of a the hinges.

And that wakes giant despair up, who hastily pursues them.

But he gets 1 of his fit Yes.

Yep.

And And, of course, he does.

Yes.

They've now seen the light.

Yes.

Exactly.

And so the light gives him paralysis.

There's hope now and it's burst into them.

And so the giant despair is really gone away with.

Yeah.

So he's really weak for the giant despair, isn't it? I think he's trying to show us that it is weakness.

His weakness is the promises of god and and truth and sunlight, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

And so they managed to, and there's not there's not a whole lot said about it, really, but they they managed to find their way back across the lands of giant despair and back to the right way.

And then they decide, you know, to do something that will serve future pilgrims they decide to put up a pillar and engrave upon the side of the pillar a sentence, which is a sentence of warning and it says over this style is the way to doubt in castle, which is kept by giant despair who despiseth the king of the celestial country and seeks to destroy his holy pilgrims.

And so this is an act of kindness to all who would come after them to say, look, don't do what we did.

This is where we went.

This is what it cost us.

And we want you to avoid the fate that we fell into.

Which is, an important, way in which testimonies can operate in the life of churches.

Yes.

You know, when you hear someone's story about what went wrong and how they'll all save them, part of the purpose of that to say, look, don't do what I did because if it wasn't for god's grace, I could have made a wreck and an end of my life.

And so please listen to this and don't do don't do, don't fool where I fell.

And that's what this this sign is designed to do.

Why do you think sorry, going back now, the whole thing.

Yes.

Why do you think he's put together, bypass meadow with his ease? Leading to doubting castle.

Why why do you think why do you think he's put those 2 things together? Well, I mean, I think there are there.

And because because bypass weather could lead to filthy Luca, couldn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

It could do.

I mean, I suppose it's true, isn't it, in the Christian life, that if you are going through a period of relative comfort and ease, that that's the time when we might go off guard a bit.

And so you do get that in the bible, don't you? Be careful if you think you're standing strong, unless you fall.

And, you know, if we haven't perhaps understood or if we've forgotten that the roads will be full of blessing and to put is is fundamentally going to be difficult right until the end.

If we've forgotten that, then as soon as the road gets rough again, we might think, hold it.

What was, you know, this, I've got used to this comfortable way of life, you know.

It reminds me just as you you speak there of King David.

So David seems to have gone away from the the path to the lord, doesn't he head to why he's not at war.

He's not a war and he's cut and he's going his own way, he sees Baashiba, which then leads him to sin horrifically.

Yeah.

And then and and actually to depression in the end.

That's what I mean.

So I think I think it's what what's the Psalm that talks about how he sort of groaning in William his whole his whole everything's creaking with him, and he feels his great despair.

And what is it that takes him out of the despair? It's repentance and remembering the promises of god.

So I think when we we depart and we, as you say, coast maybe or we decide to just take off foot of the pedal and we decide to ease off living for Jesus.

That's when we, set ourselves up for a fall.

We we then become, susceptible to falling into all sorts of sin.

And when you feel that sin It doesn't all you don't always run back to the cross that quickly.

Sometimes you feel very sorry for yourself, and sometimes you feel quite depressed about what what you've done.

People fall into into despair, though, that that that not necessarily have seen.

No.

Have they? They're not not not necessarily gone down by path.

No.

Giant despair does sort of come out and bash us, doesn't it? I don't think he's saying that doesn't happen.

No.

It's just the way he's put it, isn't it? But I think the things that he's trying to say to us when when people are battered by giant despair, it it is is prayer, and at the promises of god, isn't it? And and it's it's basic simple things that you've gotta go back to, isn't it? And that's right.

And we're we're we're embodied soul, aren't we? So we're physical and we're spiritual, and therefore both are important.

And so sometimes people fall into depressions because of chemical imbalances or because of, other health reasons.

And there's no, you can't say, you're because of this spiritual failure.

None.

Because we're much more complex than that, and there can be physical reasons or events that have happened in people lives that were outside of their control that have just thrown them into into darkness, and yet the solution is never purely Material physical.

No.

So as much as things like medication, can help to steady and moderate to use this phrase to moderate the brain and the mind.

Because we're embodied souls, spiritual, and physical, the help that we need will always be a combination probably of medication and the promises of god and and and the light of god and prayer.

And so that's that that's what we've gotta be careful of, I think, in our age where we where we secularize everything.

Yes.

Like, this is not a spiritual problem, or this is not a spiritual pro this issue, this is purely secular, purely medical.

Yeah.

Well, we wanna say, look, that's too simplistic.

You know, there's there's a combination of excuse that are needed here.

I think, I mean, when they're in despair, I think your your dad Rory was really helpful on this when he did a a talk at our church he he was in depression.

Yeah.

I think when you're in that darkness, it's very hard to pray, isn't it? And, so he's a praying man and he was a scripture reading man.

And he's been that sort of for most of his life.

So he and a pastor, and he knew those 2 things were important.

And and I I remember him saying that he it was so dark.

He he he found it very hard to read.

So what he did was, which is, I think, was really good advice He went to a children's Bible and, and just read the sort of simple truths.

It's rather a lovely thing.

And then he just, could found it really hard to formulate prayers.

So he just went to the Psalms, which are prayers.

And sort of, sort of read them out.

And I think that's just terrific because that's what happens in the end.

That will that is what will get you out of spare, isn't it? But, also, he, Christian needs Christian Fellowship.

Of Christian Fellowship.

Absolutely.

With dad he couldn't he found it very hard to be in a gathered people way.

So he would go into the back and and sit with the gathered people of God.

Because he knew that was right.

Yeah.

I'm kinda hard to sing, but would sit and listen to singing of god's praises.

And all of those things are important.

Yeah.

That that would say because he because I think twice he's had sort of mental, sort of depression, and both times he would say it's the gospel that really takes him out of those things.

Yep.

That is really important because what giant despair wants is is to keep you in the dark.

So you're not, eating properly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And on your own, really.

You know? I mean, his biggest mistake was not to separate them.

He should have separated them.

And that would have got the job done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Because Christian would have.

Yeah.

It would have.

Yeah.

And and so so fellowship is absolutely important, even though you don't want it.

So so that's the lie of giant despair, isn't it? Be on your own.

Don't eat properly, be in the dark, don't listen to the promises of god.

Don't pray.

And I I think if we're prone to this, it's it's almost worth working those things out.

Simple prayer, simple, bible readings, and I must meet up with people.

Yeah.

I think that's right.

I don't so I know I know we but but we we all need that.

Oh, well, I'm I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So, like, so why do I go to church? Because if I don't, I'll die.

Yes.

Yeah.

Why do I read the the Bible? Cause if I don't, I'll die.

Yeah.

Spirit, if I don't pray But at those times you don't want to go, you must go.

Yeah.

It's it and that's what we've gotta say to each other.

I don't wanna go to church tonight.

I'd rather watch the telly.

Yeah.

Go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Well, thanks brothers.

And, I hope you've, hope you've enjoyed tuning in, for this for this episode.

Do, as as as we've said before, if if If you're enjoying these or you'd like to ask a question about these, then please do get in touch with us.

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And you can listen to the back catalog of podcasts, either this series or other series that we've done, and, listen to sermons too.

We're we're moving on next time to the delectable mountains.

So, we'll look forward to that and hope you can hope you can join us for that episode.

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