Welcome to another Cornerstone Church Kingston Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in.
We are continuing our series in the Pilgrim's progress and we've been following along for some months now Christian and his companions as they have or has he has left the city of destruction and he's on his way to the celestial city to to heaven it self and he's been told to follow the narrow road and we've been seeing how this is an illustration of the Christian life and there's been there's been loads to learn.
So do catch up on some previous episodes.
And, here with Pete and Rory again.
Hello.
Hello.
And it's your birthday today? It is.
Yeah.
So 18th September.
Yeah? Yep.
And what's in the kit? Nothing.
Nothing.
No.
No.
I'm not following, at least.
Bye.
I know.
No.
I'm not gonna get anything either.
Especially not now.
That's some advice we might give you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
See what comes out in the next few minutes.
So what so what happened last last time? We want to just bring back some of the So, faithful and and Christian met up, and then we were looking at, some of the story of faithful and the people that he had met along the road, and they were going through sort of who had you or Christian was saying, who had you met, and how did you deal with them? And so Yeah.
Okay.
So they've been learning haven't they from each other's experiences on the road and kind of cementing the gospel in their own minds really as they talk about the things that have happened and trials they've been through.
And in this episode, it very much continues, doesn't it on that track? So faithful then begins to tell Christian about another character that he had the displeasure of meeting on the road.
Not 1 that Christian himself had met but 1 that Faithful thinks it's worth talking about and that's this man called shame, isn't it? So Rory, do you wanna tell us how they how they get get going on shame and what what he was about.
Yeah.
So Chris Christian's obviously asking the question.
Have you did he meet anyone else? And he says, I'm at shame.
But Fayetteville believes that he shouldn't be called shame.
He should be called shameless.
And that's because this man isn't a man who actually is ashamed of anything that he has done, rather he's actually quite proud of all the things that he does and and and then casts shame upon Christians for the way that they live their their lives.
He turns to Christian faith round, doesn't he, from, 1 of, submitting to the lord, listening to his word, humbling yourself under the word of God, feeling a sense of your own weaknesses in repentance, all of that, he would see it as as stupid, really.
And, we a week and it's a shame on you for feeling that shame, really.
So it's interesting, isn't it? Cause it's not what we would normally think of as shame.
No.
So when you first hear that name, you think, oh okay, so here's a guy who feels really guilty haps or he feels humiliated by something he's done in his life.
He's not gonna be proud.
He's not gonna be arrogant.
He's gonna be a worn down embarrassed sort of individual.
But it's it's the exact opposite.
He actually mocks people who are like that.
I think what I was talking about, if we were writing this today.
We'd probably call it pride Yeah.
Or proud or something.
Yes.
I I think so because it because he looks down on things like the fact that we are called to be fools in this world.
Yeah.
And we follow a foolish message, and he looks down on the fact that we might be, repentant about our sin.
He looks down at the fact that we may sit under a sermon and be convicted of sin.
And he looks down on the fact that we might look down the lowest of society and care for them.
That that to him is is ridiculous.
He's a superior being to the lowest of society and he and he should be free to do whatever he wants to do and not have to worry about the consequences.
So I think pride is a is a very good way of describing him.
I mean, that's sermon thing.
It's interesting because I just I just saw a clip.
It's quite an old clip.
Of, Stephen Fry arguing against God, you know, when he's at his most sort of, candid really going against god.
And he's talking with a Catholic lady, and He, she brings up the 10 commandments as good rules to live by, but he wants to be, you know, arguing against everything.
And and and it was really interesting what he said.
How dare anyone give me a commandment? That's that's how he says it.
How dare there be this god that give me a commandment to tell me what I should do.
Mhmm.
And and in in a sense, that's the that that's an epitome of shame, isn't it? In Yes.
In Bunyan's writing.
Right? Yes.
That's right.
And, and so faithful, and you can I I suppose, we've had this before when you're essentially mocked for the things that you believe? And so faithlet first burns with what it feels like an embarrassment.
And, Shane thinks says, look, you've you've lost his argument.
And but then faithful really starts to reflect on what is shame, bringing shame on about.
And he said, actually, no, the things that you're mocking me for are the things that actually had delight in.
And so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be sorry for the gospel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And for the gospel that comes to the week.
Yeah.
It's a lovely subversive thing, isn't it? Yeah.
He twists it around to say what you think is is is shame for a week or whenever I see a strength.
Yeah.
And that's what Christ does, isn't it? I mean, that's the that's the cross, isn't it? That's what That's what Jesus does with the the Roman cross.
The Roman cross is a sign of power over over the week.
If you go against us as Romans, this is what's gonna happen to you.
You're gonna die and Jesus takes that and the gospel takes that as the place of salvation.
And, that place of weakness is the place of of strength, isn't it? Yeah.
We have to take up our cross which is a place of strength.
Yeah.
And there's definitely people in the new testament like this who mock Paul some of the super apostles that were traveling around at the same time as Paul.
1 of the things that they would say is that Paul is, you know, he he's a weak man, you know, he might write strong in his letters but he's preaching is weak and his gospel is weak and he doesn't have any money and he makes tense and it's all rather pathetic.
You know, wouldn't god rather that his apostles were victorious and well off and triumphant and successful than going from strength to strength, not from week to week, you know, Yeah.
And but Paul was a man who was probably played with all kinds of physical disabilities and injuries and and yet he saw that as something to to boast in really that he would boast in his weaknesses because in those the strength of god would be seen and he would find joy in doing that.
And so this is you know a kind of modern equivalent of this would be someone who would say yeah this is the trouble with the Christian religion is that it you know, it's a crutch for the week, you know, it's just it's just for people who feel a bit disappointed in life and can't face the prospect of not existing that they have to have something to lean on to make them feel strong.
And you know, they the idea that we would gather every week and more than the fact that we're sinners.
It's just like ridiculous.
Why don't you be more positive? Why don't you have some, better positive thinking? Mean But actually yeah, but actually that w what I think is difficult to understand if you're not if you're not a Christian, it's that actually Yeah, we we do want to be poor in spirit, but Jesus said it's a blessing thing to be poor in spirit.
And so when you look away from yourself to him, you find you are happier, more peaceful, more content than you would have been otherwise.
So there's a there's a joy in appreciating that we are like this which the kind of the atheist or the agnostic or the non believer can't can't see.
Yeah.
And I mean, that's what the great philosopher Nature hated about Christian it.
There's weak.
I mean, he saw his dad who believed in god, and I think probably was a Christian by by sort of if you if you read what his dad Dan was a preacher and a pastor in the Lutheran church, I think.
But, his dad, you know, died weak.
And, you know, I think I think in pain.
And, Nietz just saw this and thought this was a horrific idea that, you know, god would allow someone to be weak.
If you've got a god, you're gonna be a strong man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He that's what he was railing against, wasn't it? The the weakness stuff.
And so then wanted people to achieve a strong nation, you know, superman, which obviously has catastrophic, effects later on down the line.
Yeah.
It's interesting because if Fayetteville sees he he reflects and he sees actually the way Shane talks is a worldly way of talking.
And he's and so he he examines it and he says, no.
That's not what god's about.
And he he reflects on them.
Actually, what's more important to listen to the the world or god.
And so he listens to god.
And and I love the end.
He says, should I now be ashamed of his ways and servants if I did that, how can I expect his future blessing? Yeah.
If I'm gonna go the worldly way, I won't get the blessing.
But if I listen to god and the the things that he wants and listen to his gospel, then that the blessings do await me.
So it's worth it.
Even if if this man here is gonna shame me for living in this way, it's okay because because, you know, god's more important than this than this world.
And the he, 1 of the other things he mogg is a tender conscience, isn't it? Which is a very interesting thing that, so I can't remember how exactly it's put there, but you know, if he sees a tender conscience in somebody, is it his children? I can't remember.
So he he wants them to man up basically, doesn't he? Is that it's like, well, no, don't come on, you know, you need to.
It's not manual.
It's not manual.
You need to, not, you know, not beat yourself up.
Come on.
This is you need to develop a thick skin.
And, it's interesting, isn't it? Because, you know, there are times, I don't know, with with kids or young people or whatever when you when you see the signs of a tender conscience, you know, perhaps they've told a lie and been found out or they said something mean and they there's a period where they feel a bit struck by it and a bit sad and there's remorse there.
You don't wanna you don't wanna lose the the opportunity there, do you? To actually say no, it's good.
It's actually good that we because gold has given us a conscience and it's like a little compass that is gonna tell us if we've gone right or if we've gone wrong and so we need to use that as an opportunity say, yeah, that's that's the lord telling you.
Just in in that with a natural conscience, he told you that something's gone wrong.
Mhmm.
And now you need to look for him.
And so a conscience is really something to protect as we look after because it leads you right.
That's absolutely right.
I mean, I I know you've you've seen it, but he told me to watch it, but the the, I don't know whether you've seen it, the, documentary on Andrew Tate.
Not yet now.
I mean, he's just quite a vile bloke, isn't he? I mean, I don't know whether you're allowed to say this because he seems to own the internet.
But, he's like a he's he's like he's like shame here, isn't he? He does outrageously disgusting things.
He treats people terrible.
You know, and he's like a little little baby, a little spoiled baby that once his a shame is a bit like this.
I want everything.
I mean, he talks about having a a sword in your house.
I mean, some sort of baby.
It's just what boys do.
They have a little wooden sword, don't they? And he's still into cars and the way he treats women is is a disgrace.
But he sees that as manly, doesn't he? He thinks that's manly.
And yet, when you look at him, I have to say I didn't seem really anything manly in him.
He doesn't protect women.
He doesn't protect truth.
He's got a whole organization.
You know, taking almost any word he says and and and applying it around the world so that he can get more money out of them and he's supposed to be the most manly man.
And I I I think he's like a little baby boy that just wants his own opinion, and that you know, wants to follow what everyone wants to do in his own desires.
And that really is Shane, isn't it? Yeah.
And so so Shane's persistently trying to whisper these weaknesses to faithful the weaknesses of religion, the weaknesses of following the Christian faith.
And eventually, faithful says, it's useless to continue in this manner because the very things he despise with those things that I see the most glory in.
Yeah.
And so you said, no.
I'm not gonna be ashamed of these things of of, as you as you say, if I'm having a clear conscience for living as I'm I'm gloring in the things of the gospel.
And so it's then that I think, Shane finally departs from him.
Yeah.
Then they go walking on.
Yeah.
Talking a bit about shame and something else, and they see a a together now, they're going to experience, a new man, and he's called talkative.
And there's a lot of talk, isn't there? I mean, it goes on for a long time, so I'm not sure if you would deal with everything.
I don't even remember everything, is it? But, really interesting character.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the opposite of shame in 1 sense in that he he thinks that it's really good to talk about the things of God and you know his initial, his opening dialogue and the things that talkative says and even how he spons to some quite probing questions on the surface, you know, you know, all no 1 would not have him in their church.
I mean, because he's the his he can articulate Christian Truth.
He seems to understand it not just on a superficial level but at a deep level.
He wants to talk not just about the things of god but how they apply and the work of grace in the heart and the need of repentance.
Yeah.
And he seems to be very well educated in in theology and in in Christian thinking and faithful to begin with, you know, asks him a few questions but he's initially very impressed with it, really, and thinks that, oh, this is actually compared to everyone else we've met, this is actually the sort companion that might be worth having.
And, you know, I think he could do us a lot of good Brother Christian here here on the road.
And then I mean I don't know whether we want to go into some of the things he says or but he he then he then goes back to Christian, doesn't he? Yeah.
Because Christian has I don't know, decided to walk a bit slower or taking a step back.
And faithful goes and says, look, this is, you know, this is great, isn't it? I mean, he's, yeah, this guy's, this guy's the real deal.
Yeah.
And in Christian, there's a sort of a creeping smoke, but it comes on his face.
A slight smile.
Yeah.
And then and then Christian has some extra information, doesn't he, about this or this guy? He sees through him, doesn't he? He knows about him that it's talk, talk, talk, and no action, and no reality.
And that his life is a is a is a mess.
But he he talks the talk, but he doesn't walk the walk.
That's basically it, isn't it? That's that's going on with him.
But he knows him from the city of destruction might pass.
So that's Yes.
Because he's, he is the son of 1, say well.
And he lived in prating row.
I think it's prating row.
Cracking.
Yeah.
Prate.
So in spite of his eloquent manner, speaking, he remains a wretched fellow.
So he looks at he looks attractive.
That's what they say about, talkative.
From a distance, he looks like a tall, handsome man But when you get close-up to him, you can see that he's rather ugly, actually.
And then that's the idea, isn't it? That the words outwardly.
Yeah.
But in the in in his heart, that's the picture that you say.
And this way of life had earned him a reputation even in his own town, hadn't it? So there's a bit where Christian says, yes, you know, people would rather trade with barbarians than him.
Because that's the way he conducted him in all areas of life that he would even in business, it would be, oh yeah, this is great.
Let me tell you about this product.
Fantastic.
You know, we sold 5000 in the last month and he has 5 star reviews, you know, check.
And yet, but it's all talk and then he sells the product and the product his NASH when people so you never know what you're getting with him.
That's the difficulty.
And he's I guess he's someone who's constantly disappointing Yeah.
People around him.
Because there's something inspiring about him and he can probably gather a crowd, but they see through him in the end because there's no there's no follow through and, you know.
That's right.
There's so many good lines about him here.
I mean, Christian compares and his house is empty of religion as the white of an egg is devoid of flavor, which is brilliant.
There's no there's no prayer off in his house, not any size of repetitive for sin.
This is a good 1.
Yes.
Even an animal serves god far better than talkative.
And then he goes later on the common people who really know him say a saint abroad and a devil at home, which is, you know, brilliantly put.
And then you're just really quite sobering when you when you think about him because in in Christian's opinion, his wicked lifestyle causes many to stumble and fall and won't be the ruin of many more unless god intervened.
So yes, talk a great game, but actually the actions show something very different, and that means that people will go away from the gospel rather than, believing the gospel.
And and to but we're taught soundly.
Yeah.
So he's not a heretic.
That's the strange thing about this bloke.
He's not saying lies about God, but he's living lies.
And that's the big difference.
And it's talk talk talk.
He could he could argue, couldn't he, about a doctorate? He would get the minutiae of a doctorate perhaps right.
Yep.
He would say, you know, if you're a Calvinist, you're an old union, he would he'd know all of those terms and be able to argue whichever 1 that would be suitable for him at the time.
So he talks and he talks and he talks about god.
But the the the the way faithful then tries to draw him out at the end is to talk about application.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
And so, that that gets him angry, isn't it? Yeah.
Are you trying to catch me out? What do you what do you why why are you playing tricks with me? Yeah.
And when it comes to the heart felt, change in your life by the doctrines he's talking about.
Doesn't want to know? No.
And he asks him about his personal walk with the lord, doesn't he? So he says talkative, you you know, you can give me the doctrine of prayer.
Yeah.
Brilliantly, but do you pray? Do you actually pray? You know, you can defend the doctrine of scripture to me, but do you read it in your closet in your private room, you know, do you is it actually part of your life, prayer, and bible reading, and faith? You know, and that's when he starts to get exposed as well, isn't it? Because you know, in the end, this is where a talkative or a or a hypocritical person gets found out because you know, they're not they're just not gonna make time for that stuff when no one's looking and when they're on their own because it's not in their heart.
It's just what they think is going to get them all in the world, which is what they really want, isn't it? But Jesus says, certainly in the sermon on the Mount, you know, call me lord lord, but I never knew you.
Yeah.
And the the word new there is is that intimate word.
You go, I don't know.
You know, because Jesus knows everybody, but he doesn't It's not a relation.
No.
Relationship here.
And you but he says lord law, Yeah.
So he's got his theology absolutely right.
This is the lord, and that's the sort of thing he is.
Oh, and in in that sermon, it's not his lord lord.
Did we not sign in your name.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Do we not talk about that? Yeah.
Do the right thing? Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's away from you.
You will do it.
Yeah.
And that's the difference because I think that that's what Christian points faithful to, which is why goes down that line of questioning, it's it's it's not good enough to know information.
You must be a doer of the word, which is what they which is clearly not talkative.
He's not trying to apply the word of god to his life, and that becomes evident with just a couple of lines of of questions which really exposes him, which is why he he blushes later on and says, you're not gonna be my judge to be faithful.
I wouldn't let you judge me.
Yeah.
He's been found out.
And he he is like, he's heard the sermon on the Mount, and it it comes and and he's he's missed off the last part of chapter 7.
He needs to hear that the wise builder puts on builds builds on the rocket.
They they hear the word and they they put it into action.
I mean, we met these people? Yeah.
I mean, I think there I think there are pit and I I suppose, you know, when you look at it, there's there's the potential for for this in all of our hearts, isn't there? For there to be a growing gap between what we say and who we actually are.
And, there used to be always that cam talk, which was mind the gap.
Really, was it? Yeah.
Yeah.
You remember, you know, when you get on the underground.
Yeah.
Mind the gap.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it would that was always at all.
Yeah.
The gap between what you know and how you live.
Yeah.
And and I think that is really that's really in line with new testament teaching, isn't it? So when you've got in the letters like colossians and ephesians and so on, the the first half of the book is is often great explanations of the gospel and then the second half is the practical applications And where does Paul always begin? Well, church, husband's wives, father's children, workplaces in other words, he's saying that these the gospel when you understand it absolutely makes a difference in all corners of your life, you know, in the home and in the work and stuff.
And so this idea that you could get the first half of the letter.
Yeah, I can I can defend Ephesians 1 to 3? I know exactly what it says.
I know the doctrines of and salvation and and not have it affect how you like you know so you don't embody your children for instance, or yeah.
Yeah.
Don't treat you.
It's just a foreign and new testament Christianity, isn't it? That, and so we've always gotta be god.
And and absolutely you're right to say we all have this and this is what we've gotta keep looking at our own heart and applying the word of god to.
But there are people on there.
Yeah.
And it can be quite shocking when you first meet someone a bit like this.
Because, you know, like faithful, you're you're you're taking in because you don't know.
It takes time.
It takes time, doesn't it? To to work out patterns in people's lives.
Oh, they say this but they don't do this.
And then you don't come judging immediately in someone.
We all know we fall short of what we sort of believe in that sense.
Yeah.
But, after a while, it can be quite shocking that you have people that they're absolutely, you know, strong on doctrines.
But when you when you hear about how they treat their wife for you, or the church or other, believers.
It is extraordinary, isn't it? And, and, and, and really quite upsetting, I think.
Yeah, it is because because when you when you listen to them, that you think, okay, this is a really dangerous position for you to be in because you actually know everything that you need to know.
So I can't I can't really tell you any fresh doctrine you have what you need.
But it's not translating into and love in your life.
And therefore, that's the caution that we need to give, you know.
In 1 sense, it's different from someone who's very new to the faith.
And their life is a bit of a mess and this was because they haven't understood yet.
They haven't understood and they're on a growing but someone who knows everything.
And yet it's just not affecting their lives.
You think that's really dangerous because I can't tell you anything more really.
I think you do get this sometimes.
It it's almost like there's a talkative and there's a sort of compulsive learner as well.
Mean, they sort of almost go together.
The the, you know, the person is very clear.
You know, love your wife.
Yeah.
And it's not that hard to work through.
But, oh, how do I do that? I need to go to, extra counseling.
I need to find out more information You know, there's there's always people, I think, in the church that think if I had more knowledge, if I could learn more stuff, if I could learn you know, then I might be able to put that into practice, but put what you know into practice, and then you'll learn.
Yeah.
And so certainly talkative isn't doing that.
No.
And then and then, obviously, once he goes, because he he gets up and leaves, Christian says, you know, your words and his lost could not agree.
So he must he has to go because Yeah.
Faithful's exposed him, but, Christian's very, he's very he commends faithful for the way that he's dealt, yeah, with talkative.
And it is a really good example for us in a sort of pastoral fashion, if you're trying to work out, you know, is this person, are they the talkative type, then we ask some questions about personal holiness, isn't it? And and But that's what he didn't like.
No.
Well, that but and I know they don't like it, but that's why he said he says.
Yeah.
You did well to speak so frankly with him.
Very little of this faithful dealing with men happens these days.
And and he and he bemoans that actually there's so many people that sort of just go through and they end up causing more damage because they're not being dealt with in this way.
And he says, you know, I wish all men would be would deal with such impostors as directly as you have done.
Then perhaps they will be made more agreeable to the truth.
So it's it's the reason why it's great to talk like this is because actually you can try and expose and then convict and then bring them to a true repentance.
Isn't it? But you're you're right.
I mean, it's gonna do 1 of 2 things.
This line of questioning is either gonna set them away.
Yeah.
And it's 1 reason why I think Paul says to Timothy, you know, be slow in the laying on of hands.
Like that you you know, if you've got somebody in the church who's a candidate for leadership and, you know, they can teach well and they've got a good grasp of biblical truth.
The temptation is particularly if you're small and there aren't many leaders, is to is to promote them too quickly.
And I think what Paul says to Timothy there is you just need to just give it a bit of time to make sure he's a 1 woman kind of man that he doesn't have any addiction issues that handles his money well.
And those things are gonna take time.
You know, it's not that he has to sit through decades of inspection, but, you know, you've gotta be hate.
And so I think faithful is, in 1 sense, his his his attitude here is very Christian, isn't it? He he's charitable in the beginning and he wants to see the best but Christian is so helpful to him to say let just not be hasty in the laying on of hands here.
Let's just hold on a minute and make sure he's he's the he's the real deal before we promote him into our company sort of thing.
And that's that's that's a good that's a good lesson.
I think so.
I mean, and and I think also in you know, talking to people pastorally, you you you once you've met a few of these people, you you you Well, you you look at your own heart and you can see the scene in others very, very often, but these people are just talking, talking, talking, and then when you when you challenge them personally, they're they're all it's always someone else's fault if there's a sin in their life.
It's always they can talk around.
That person needs to repent and, but I've I I I don't, and they've always got sort of really good reasons why they're their right as well.
And, and I think you do what he does.
Yeah.
You bring this person.
What about you? Don't worry about that person.
What about you? You know, it's a bit like, you know, you know, Peter, at the end of John, wants to know what's gonna happen with John.
He says to choose what's gonna happen to Ian.
Jesus says, don't worry about that, mate.
You follow me.
You follow me.
Yeah.
Don't worry about the other 1.
You follow me.
Good stuff.
Yep.
Yep.
Okay.
Well, that's We're still not at Vanity Fair, which I think is next time.
Is it? Are we Is that next time? Yeah.
In the case I know.
That's that's gonna be a that's a beauty.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, do join us next time for, for that episode.
And as I said at the start, you can listen to the back catalog of a Cornerstone podcast in the Pilgrim's progress series.
We've also done Christianity A to Z, which was a doctor in series.
You can find under the corner Cornerstone Podcast stories as well.
1 of the members of the church has interviewed other women in the church hearing their testimonies, and that's a terrific series.
And then there's sermon catalog and, and, and other things too.
So do do make use of those resources, and we'll see you next time.
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