Welcome to the Cornerstone Church Kingston Podcast.
Thanks for tuning in We are continuing our series in the Pilgrim's progress, and, we have now left behind in interpreters House.
If you've listened to the last view.
We've been looking at, that part of the journey.
And, now we're gonna reach, the the critical moment, really, in Christian's journey, he makes his way from the city of destruction to heaven's city, the celestial city, and, we're gonna be discussing that again.
So I'm here with with Ben.
Hello? And Pete.
And Rory.
Hello.
And, this is just 1 of the, podcast series that we've done, and, you can find lots of other things on website Cornerstonechurchkingston.
org.
And so we are, yeah, we're re we're ready to pick it up.
So he's leaving interpreters' house behind, and Rory, you've got it open there.
Do you just wanna tell us the next the next few sentences? What what what what happens? How does the journey progress from there? Well, he's just being bid farewell, by interpreter.
He's prayed a prayer for him.
And then, he's on a highway to travel called Salvation.
And, on that journey up, he comes to a hill, and on top of the hill, he sees the cross.
Unless it's where his burdens his burden is.
So there's not lots of not lots of stuff happens between those 2, does it? He leaves the house and then he's and then he's at the cross.
Yeah.
So he sees the hill.
So he saw and he saw some starts to run up, and it's quite hard for him because he's obviously if you remember, he's got this big burden on his back.
And but as he gets to the top of that that hill, it it just falls away.
It begins to loosen there.
The nearer he gets to the cross, it begins to Yeah.
The the sort of ties around, his burden begins to loosened and then it falls off, but he he sees a cross and a a seppuku, doesn't he? Yeah.
A team here, which is a sort of tomb, which I think is if it doesn't, it's it's sort of you don't see the bottom of it.
Yeah.
It's a it's a vast cavern, that I don't think you see the bottom of it.
I'm not I'm not sure.
And so this is, I mean, it's a massive moment in the journey so far, isn't it? Because this burden has been something he's felt since the very first moment he opened god's book in the city of destruction.
And the more he read it, the heavier that burden became.
And so this this burden and awareness of his own sin and his guilt before god has has been the thing that, has gone with Christian so far.
And he's even gone off the road foolishly, attempting to try to get rid of it.
So that's been a very attractive thing to him.
How can I get rid of this burden? An evangelist who's been his helper thus far has always told him that there is a proper way to get rid of that burden, but he's been persuaded to try to go the route of morality, and to go the route of the law, anything to get this burden off his back.
So this has been, this is a big thing for him to lose this.
And the memory of losing this will be critical for the rest of his journey.
I was interested because he he It it takes a long time.
I mean, how many podcasts have we done to get to get to this point of the cross? And yet, when it when he's there, it's it's sort of done quite quickly quite quickly.
Yeah.
And and the whole thing, even though, as you say, we've been building up to this, and this is central to everything, it's sort of done and dusted quite quickly because Christ has done everything sort of for him, isn't it? I think there's that sort of feel to it, isn't it? He hasn't got to do anything.
Just comes to the cross, and it's it's all he doesn't even untie the the burden.
It unties itself as it were.
Yeah.
And he's crying.
Isn't it? He's weeping because he can't quite believe it's gone, and he's looking around him, isn't he? Sort of thinking, how is this so wonderful? This is such a wonderful moment.
And the and then was Christian Glad and lights him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's rather nice.
That lights him thing, isn't it? I just but says he has given me rest by his sorrow and lie by his death.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is a an amazing biblical word rest, isn't it? This is the rest that he didn't have when he was in tears back in the city of destruction.
He said, I must I must find this rest.
And, and the the weight, the the thing on his back rolls down into the grave, doesn't it? Empty too.
Which is a and disappears.
Yeah.
Which is an important point there because it shows that in order for this burden to be lifted, you need both across and direction.
So, that's the gospel, isn't it? The Jesus Christ has been crucified for our sins and has taken all the shame and the guilt associated with that, but he has risen from the dead, which if that had not happened, would be a disaster because it shows us that the payment for sin wouldn't have worked, that god hadn't accepted it, that the sacrifice wasn't pure or perfect enough, and we'd still be left with the problem of our sin.
And so you need the empty tomb to proclaim to the world.
You really can come to Christ and you can be forgiven the payment was paid and accepted on your behalf, which is why when you go into Roman Catholic churches and think maybe Eastern Orthodox churches as well, and you you Jesus is still on the cross.
What they're trying to say is look how terrible the suffering was for but actually if Jesus is still on the cross, there's no gospel.
He needs the cross needs to be empty, because he's come off and he's risen again.
He can't still be there.
Otherwise, it's it's bad news, you know, so you need you need both.
He needs to see both.
Also.
A great point that god just doesn't just sweep the weight away to say this is insignificant.
The place that it goes is death, isn't it? It has to go into the tomb and into the grave, and it has to sink down into death.
That's that's the judgment, isn't it? For been crucified and thrown That's actually, yeah, death is the judgment for it.
And that's the place where it gets dealt with.
It doesn't roll down the hill into the bush and then not seen again.
But but god deals with it the only ultimate end is death, and and he has the joy of seeing it roll into Christ's tomb and and not bear him into the ground and sink him Can't just let Sinoff.
No.
So, you know, he's he's just and yet he's the 1 justifies.
Yes.
So he's done, that just act of condemning sin, casting it into hell, really, in that into the here into the Yep.
Abyss, if you like.
So the judgment is done on the cross and then taken away the the the since taking away, so there's mercy.
So Yeah.
Yeah.
And then when he when he's when that happens, he he does hang around.
He said he says, He looked and therefore and looked again even till the I I love this.
Even till the springs that were in his head sent the water down his cheeks.
Even till the springs that were in his head sent the water down his cheeks.
This is an emotional time.
And it says, and now as he stood looking and weeping, behold 3 shining ones, so it'll come to them in a minute, obviously.
But, this is emotional.
And I I I, you know, we gotta be careful that we don't, make this just a sort of dry transaction Yeah.
Been going on here.
Just a set of propositions, which as long as you mentally agree with.
Yeah.
That's all that matters.
Yeah.
This is supposed to be, and now we're all different in our emotions, and we show those emotions differently, but we are to have emotion here, aren't we? I mean, it's quite hard not to have an emotion.
You might not cry like he did, and you may not show it in ways, you know, that someone else would, but there is a motion here, surely.
And and Christianity is an emotional faith, isn't it? Yeah.
And it's probably it's proportional to how much you felt your sin, I suppose, isn't that he's But Jesus said that, isn't he? Yeah.
Apparent, isn't it? Yeah.
Mhmm.
What is that? It's for Kevin Walland.
Yeah.
That's my Oh, yeah.
He he who? He's forgiven much.
He loves much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice to know.
That's the point, though.
Right? He's acutely felt his sin.
He's had this great burden that he's been longing to, get off his back.
When that when that's released, the must the whole emotional release and relief would be, you know, you'd feel that, just as a just as acutely.
And so, yeah, tears would would flow down your face.
And, actually, sometimes, as as a Christian, it's that you feel that more and more as you grow up grow in your Christian walk, Yeah.
So, so sometimes, particularly if you've grown up in a Christian background, you might not, you might not get it straight away.
Yes.
I'm a Christian.
This is good stuff.
And then as you grow and you you get closer to the cross, you you realize how sinful you really are, and you're you're more and more blown away by the the grace and mercy of the lord Jesus Christ and and what his cross has done it, and then you those tears come.
So it's different for different people, but I think you know, if anything, as we grow, we should we should feel this more emotionally than we had done before.
And this isn't just a, yeah, as we grow.
So this isn't just a 1 off occasion, is it? The Christian doesn't just glance at the cross once in their life.
No.
And then move on from it, but regularly in the preaching, we take people to the cross again.
And with an increasing clarity, hopefully, as they grow in understanding of their own sin and of who Jesus is and what he did.
It can be emotional that I get sort of more and more, can't it as we look at the process? I mean, in theory, he's ready to go to heaven now.
He, I mean, god could just come and or the lord of the country could come and just take him to heaven.
You know, so a quarter of the book, perhaps, or a 5th or something is pre Cross.
And then he's got this whole journey ahead of him.
And, you know, in in 1 way or another, his success going forward is related to how well he can remember what's happened at the cross, isn't it? When when he forgets that, he's gonna go wrong.
Okay.
So it says it says now he stood.
Oh, my machine's just gone off.
Yes.
He's 3 dips.
He's a shining ones, unless we stood there weeping and behold, 3 shining ones came to him and saluted him with peace be with the So the first 1 said to him, thy sins, be forgiven.
The second stripped him of his rags and clothed him with change of Raymond.
And the 3rd also set a mark on his forehead and gave him a role with a seal upon it, which he bade him, look on as he ran, until he gets to this celestial gate, So 3 things, peace be with you, which is that's what you'd know at the cross, isn't it? Mean, people are looking for peace, aren't they? Internal peace, and there's so much turmoil, isn't there, in people's lives, anxiety turmoil, mean, we've probably never known anything anything like it, and particularly amongst young people are supposed to be full of life and energy.
And I don't think we've known anything quite like this for at least centuries where there's just a group of people without peace and, and but here at the cross, peace be with you.
Why? Because you're right with your maker.
And once that's when you're right with your maker, then, you know, you can walk into this world, knowing that you're at peace with him, and this isn't gonna be an extraordinary difference, isn't it? Yeah.
It doesn't doesn't mean he has an easy ride from now on, does it? Peace be with you.
You've now it's downhill from here, mate.
You can just hop on that slide and it takes all the way? No.
Because the Bible says that there's a piece that passes all understanding.
Yeah.
So what's a piece that passes all understanding? Well, it's a piece of someone in a battlefield, isn't it? Yeah.
And it's, yeah.
It's not on the beach.
When when I'm sitting on the beach looking in ice cream and I'm at peace, it's I understand.
But if I'm in a battlefield and everybody's getting killed around me and I'm a piece.
Yeah.
That's a 1.
And that's the piece he's gonna bring.
And that's it.
It's part of the fruit of the spirit for that reason, isn't it? That it grows as a fruit in a conflict zone, you know, so the fruit of the spirit forces is lovejoy peace.
And so peace is something that like a fruit, will grow and mature, as we fight against sin.
That's, you know, because a conflict passage, isn't it? Say yes to this, no to this, and stuff.
So that's good.
And he gets this, he also gets this assurance, doesn't he? So and I think they link it up, or he links it up with, Ephesians 1 there, where it's, this is a paraphrase because at home in front of me, but when you were when you believed you were marked with a seal, the promised holy spirit guaranteeing your inheritance or something like that.
And, And so this is to say that when when someone is forgiven at the cross, and they've experienced the the forgiveness of Christ, the Holy Spirit is given the holy spirit comes to indwell within a person, and god himself takes up residence in this newly forgiven made righteous person.
And that guarantees your inheritance.
You know, it's it's your assurance.
He's never ever going to depart from you.
You know, he's the ultimate starter finisher, isn't he? You know, god, whatever project god begins, he brings to completion, and he's not gonna you know, my house is full of half done DIY projects, you know, things that were started with good intentions, but then left.
But whatever project god begins he finishes, and that's that's what this scroll is about is to say, keep this with you This is, this is your an assurance that you're you're mine.
And I think this is interesting that when when when the journey carries on, you'll see that there are times.
We'll see that there are times when that assurance, is kinda lost for a season.
Which I think is an aspect of, like, theology, which, you know, perhaps is harder to come across these days, but, I mean, he never gets his burden back Yeah.
So that's never put back on.
It's burden.
It's now gone forever.
Yeah.
But sometimes there will be seasons when this scroll of assurance is lost or misty.
Falls asleep and leaves it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, isn't he told to look at it? He's told to always look at it, isn't it? Yeah.
So in a way, it's for his eye, because he's also marked on the forehead.
Right? Yeah.
And he can never lose the mark on the forehead.
So in a sense, he's stamped, he's gods.
He he you never will lose that.
Yeah.
But the assurance that he's meant to look at, he can waylay, or put down somewhere.
And then then he's panicking, but, you know, he's always got the stamp on the forehead.
Yeah.
Even if he can't even if he's mislaid his his assurance.
And he has to present the scroll That's right.
When he gets to heaven.
Yeah.
And so the angels wanna see it.
Yeah.
Just make sure you've got it.
Yeah.
But you haven't got a false insurance, I suppose.
Right.
Yeah.
But we we've missed something because before he gets the scroll on the on the mark on his forehead, he's given this new clothing.
So the old rags are taken off the new clothing is placed on.
That's rather than a nice image.
It of what the cross does.
So the cross doesn't just deal with our sin, and then we're left sort of naked sinners as it were, it it it gives us a rightness, isn't it? There's a righteousness, the robes of righteousness, are given to us.
So Christ pays for our sin, but he also buys our righteousness.
We are covered in the rightness of the lord Jesus Christ.
Which which is, you know, that double sided part of the cross is an extraordinarily wonderful thing.
Yeah.
He's now dressed like the gold shining ones.
Yeah.
They saw in the vision in the image of the of the city, isn't he? So he's he is actually now dressed to go to the kingdom.
When he gets there, he doesn't need anything else to put on.
No.
He is dressed for the kingdom.
He just now needs to get there, which is nice, isn't it? And he's yeah.
I think I think I've this is a lot of people's experience.
I mean, even, when we were, I think listening to Rachel's testimony.
Particularly those that are sort of brought up in church, they they sort of make a commitment to Christ every time the preacher says come to Christ.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And and and it's a sort of lack of assurance, isn't it? And then there comes a point isn't there where you re they really understand what the cross has done.
And, oh, okay.
He has taken my I don't need to keep you know, repenting in that sense.
Obviously, there's a life of repentance, but, oh, now here's the assurance now he's taken my sin, and now on the basis of the cross, I walk towards, the heavenly kingdom.
And I think that's I I think this is a lot of people's experience, isn't it? They wanted to follow Christ.
They've been walking down Salvation road.
And then suddenly it it clicks, you know, or or they they the truth is impressed, not in just their mind, but in their very soul.
Yeah.
Christ has taken my sin.
I am liberated.
And I have new raim raimlands.
But but fit for purpose.
Yeah.
So that that's Zechariah 34.
I've taken your iniquity away from you, and we'll clothe you with festal robes, feastal robes, everything I said.
So or or this sort of rich robes that are ready for a feast.
So you're now dressed appropriately to enter the kingdom of heaven to enjoy the feast that is on offer there.
So he's he's now dressed appropriately.
He's able to enter the kingdom.
You need there's a dress code to enter many places, isn't that? And you can't get in unless you have the correct Yeah.
Dress code He's got it now.
That's right.
And it it's a that stands for the perfect obedience of Christ to the lord, isn't it? Because what what we need order to get into heaven is not just a similar record, but a perfect record.
Yes.
Yeah.
Not just never breaking the 10 commandments, but fulfilling them perfectly.
I mean, that's why I I mean, I I really under I'm, you know, that's why we've gotta be careful when we say that God isn't into good work.
I mean, it's it's it's you know, we cannot we can often over push something.
You you're not saved by good works, but that you are saved by good works, not our good works, because there's no good work we can do.
But because every good work we do is tainted by sin.
Because we're born in this cursed world.
But it's Christ Good Works.
Yeah.
So we mustn't give the impression that god is not is in good works.
No.
And it's just sort of grace.
It is grace.
Yeah.
But it's his good works on our behalf.
That's quite an important part of the gospel.
But it's when Jesus says perfect as your father in heaven is perfect, you know, you read that and you think, oh, is that? I mean, that's literally an impossible car the month of the field, but the way to fulfill it is the trust Christ who has perfectly abayed on on mine.
I can't be perfect if I ignore Christ.
Yeah.
That's the thing, isn't it? I I find a perfection, an alien righteousness, perfection in in him.
And then that gives me the freedom I need to to live the good life that god wants me to live.
And I think this is, you know, a really unique and important part of the gospel, isn't it? Because in lots of world religions, you do have the concept that, god can can do something about your sin.
But it's almost as if he pushes the reset button in your life.
And from then on, it's up to you to, kind of merit the life the eternal life.
Yes.
But the gospel is just so liberating in that it says everything has been done for you, sin taken care of, righteousness, credit to your account.
Well, that's the sarcastic thing, isn't it? So Christ has died on the cross for you.
Now you're you you now you've got to live.
So that's the past sins.
Yeah.
You've got to live that righteous life.
And that's why you've got to and this this is definitely wrong.
Not just look back to the cross and what he's done for you is to crucify Christ all the time.
Yeah.
So that's what their masses, isn't it? It's a re crucifixion of Christ.
And then, of course, if you're dying before you die, you need to have the absolution of your sins.
Yeah.
From the time you became a Christian to, you know, and if you don't, then you'll go, oh, I don't quite know what happens with go to I don't need good hell, but you'll have a darker purgatory.
And, and purgatory, of course, is a whole blast for me against the boss.
Yeah.
But now we're on to another subject and yeah.
No.
But it's it's it's linked, isn't it? Because it's not that he, the burdens removed and that he's given a white robe and they say, now, don't get it dirty.
Don't mess it up.
He's given a bright raymond of clothes.
Yeah.
Fit for the kingdom and they won't stain and they won't get, dirty, because it's already been done for him.
In a way, that's that's this is the motivation as a Christian, isn't it, to leave the old life behind? It's good motivation.
When you see yourself dressed in the clothes of heaven in Christ's righteousness, he's you're less likely to go and roll around in the mud again, aren't you? Because you go, I don't know what it's like when you put a white shirt on and you sit down for dinner and a baked bean falls on it.
Yeah.
It's depressing.
Really annoying.
Yeah.
And, yeah, so you try your hardest not to.
And so you you, you have you have a motivation to to live differently because you're dressed differently.
If he went back to the city of destruction now, he'd be well out of product place, wouldn't he? He'd he'd yeah.
So And and this is a big part of isn't it? Because there is some, you know, like, not mystery in a mysterious sense, but there is something that by faith, we just need to grasp here, isn't it? Because we're we're on the 1 hand saying that when god looks at us, He sees us not only as sinless, but perfect in the eyes of god.
And yet, when we look inside ourselves, we know all the indwelling nastiness that remains and the sin that remains.
And we know that 1 day, we're gonna really truly be made perfect as he is perfect.
And so the Christian life is sort of I've gotta believe something that god has told me about myself that he really does look at me and sing over me as I am in his son with all the perfections of his son, and yet also reckon with the fact that I I'm, you know, I I'm grieving the holy spirit by my disobedience, and I'm not I you know, I'm a slow to learn and stiff necked stubborn and ridiculous, you know, and and so I've gotta live within that tension, haven't I? This this side of heaven.
And, I think that's 1 of the big battles of faith is just to remember what god has declared me to be and not look at myself and try to read what god is thinking into that, but trust his word and then live in the freedom of that, isn't it? But it's a hard it's a hard tension to live within that, isn't it? Sometimes.
That's why we must keep preaching the cross because if we forget the cross and what's happened, we will be 10 to think it's down to us.
But we we keep taking people back to that place and they see the weight's gone.
They see that they're dressed in new robes.
They've been given assurance.
They go, okay.
Yeah.
That's who I am now.
Let's go on.
And then he once he's got these things, he bursts into song and leaps for, leaps for joy, we're told, and it's, you know, it's just it's just thrilled.
There is a little song here, but I'm not sure if I'd get it right in his language.
He's he says he's singing thus far.
Did thus far, I did.
No.
I'm not going to.
So far, did I come burdened with my sin? No 1 could ease the grief that I was in until I came here, what a place this is.
Is this place the beginning of my blessedness? Is this the place the burden fell from my buck? Is this the place where the strings that bound it to me broke? Bless it cross.
Bless it.
Blessed rather be the man who there was put a shame for me.
Mhmm.
She got a slightly more than the the 1.
Yes.
I do.
I've got hitters and Yeah.
And I think that's sorry.
I just think there's, you know, that's a really lovely last line, isn't it? You know, blessed cross, blessed seppucker, blessed rather the 1 who is there for me.
And I think what that shows Put to shame for me.
Put to shame for me.
I think what that shows there is that e even the the benefits or the gifts of the gospel are not as precious as the man who's won them.
For us, that that Christianity is gonna be it's gonna be an affection and a love for Christ himself, isn't it? And not just the heaven that he can give me or the gifts that he can give me, but him he himself is the prize of the gospel.
Yeah.
And the most blessing.
Well, I was talking to someone, the other day, and I and I think this was the big difference.
You know, they brought up a Christian they thought they understand Christianity.
But, you know, as you were talking to them, you suddenly realized that there was actually no Christ in their Christianity.
They didn't really get this.
And, and it was just quite extraordinary and and uncomfortable, really.
But the whole idea really was that god god is there to sort of to sort of receive our worship or whatever it is that we have to give him, and he might bless us in this world.
And that that's a really not not a Christian view of god.
Is it not that he's father? He wants to be relational.
He's called father, isn't he? And, and we we come to no farther through the sun of the lord Jesus Christ.
It's very it's very intimate in that sense, but this was all works and religion and things you do and how much you give away and it all comes down to what that person does in the end.
So at what point Did he become a Christian? Because he's already called Christian, isn't he? I don't I don't know.
I I mean, spurgeon thought that he and a lot of people criticized bunion for this day, and it took too long to get to the cross.
I think in reality, it's 50 often like this, So he may well have been a Christian when he got through the the wicked, you know, the the the the little gate, the narrow gate, and as he chose the narrow way, but I think a lot of people are like that, aren't they? They they it's sort of is a journey.
And where you can say, you know, when they became a Christian because it's not just god choosing us and making it to Christian, there's also, you know, us being converted and, asking the lord to be our savior.
Where that happened with him.
I don't know.
But it doesn't really matter because he's come to the cross and the cross.
So what what what do you do with someone who's on the road? You point them to the cross.
Yeah.
What do you do with someone who's not sure where they are? Are you pointing them to the cross? Don't you? And, but I would say in his experience now, he could call himself a Christian because he knows that his sins have been taken away and he's been given this assurance by the spirit.
It's like the the it's it seems like it's this moment as he comes face to face with the cross, that all that he's been thinking now connects with the heart fully.
And so he's been on the right path.
He's known these truths.
He's realized that he doesn't wanna live the city of destructions.
He's discovered many truths about himself and about the gospel.
He's seen these great pictures that the preachers pointed him towards.
And then He's been ready to come to the cross, and he he realizes, yes, I'm free.
I have forgiveness, crisis given me a new, a new life, and he's given me assurance.
So I think this is where he, you know, whether or not he was a Christian beforehand, he certainly feels it more more strongly than he had done before.
And there are different that there are, you know, there are different types of people, aren't they? So if you if you look at who Jesus meats in the gospels.
There are there are the pharisees, for instance, who are who are in the city of destruction and are not leaving it they're they're like obstinate, you know, they're not coming out.
But then there are people who come to Jesus and they say, you know, teacher, we've left everything follow you or a teacher.
I'm gonna follow you.
I just need to bury my father or, and they're all very well intentioned, or there's the rich young ruler.
He knows what the commands are.
He's kept them all since he was boy.
And so he's he's unconverted, but different than the pharisee who's never left the city of destruction.
They they they both need the cross, but they're they're sort of different in how they've approached Jesus and even what they've been willing to give up to Jesus or in their level of interest.
And it seems like Bunion maybe is trying to say, look, you know, there are people who come and they wanna follow, and they can even make some sacrifices in order to come and listen, but you do until you've passed through the cross.
You're you're you're not a converted person.
You still pay your ceiling.
If you it's not dealt with you, take it with you.
Yeah.
And there's other examples of those people who go on this source of journey.
You know, John's so good at at painting this, but the man who's healed from his blindness goes on this kind of journey way because more more knowledgeable about yeah.
And then suddenly he what he's basically worshiping Jesus as god at the end of that.
Or you think of nicodemus, he comes in chapter 3.
And he's like, well, we know we're, you know, I know something about you.
He he's obviously at odds somewhat with the, with the other religious leaders there.
And then he and then you get him again.
I think the way that John interweaves the story of nicodemas with the story of Jesus is brilliant because he comes in next and he's defending Jesus at some point.
And then Jesus dies, at least there, with Joseph of Aramatha, another bloke who would have been part of the religious ruling council and they're burying this Jesus.
And so it would seem that these these sort of people go on these journeys.
And sometimes you know, people get it straight away.
The Samaritan woman seems to get it pretty, pretty quickly, but Nick Ademas goes through this journey, and the blind man goes through this journey.
Think that's that's seems to be what's going on with him.
That's it.
I mean, we're gonna meet some of those people that think they Yeah.
They've actually climbed over the wall and, they've missed cross out.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's the answer, isn't it? When you're when you're when you're talking to someone about whether you are a follower of Jesus, there are certain things you do need to hear they may not be the words, but the concepts.
And and I think sin is 1 of them.
I don't you know, you won't come to Jesus, will he? As a savior.
You might come to him as a provider of for, you know, me or healing or something, but sin is is big, isn't it? And coming to him knowing that actually he's the only 1.
He's the only name who will, be our savior, and he's paid the penalty.
For our sin.
Those those concepts we've gotta be had.
However, however much there is to learn on those massive things and there is, there's gotta be some concept of that, hasn't it? Has it not? That's right.
Yeah.
I mean, even when the thief on the cross is dying, He's he's he's got a very limited understanding of, Jesus and Jesus's ministry and wouldn't know the 5 points of Calvinism, you know, at that stage.
But, yeah, he basically knows this man next to me is innocent.
I'm guilty.
I'm getting what I deserve.
He he he isn't.
And through what he's doing, I think I can I think I can find forgiveness and and get out of this? Does it remember me? Remember me? Yeah.
And, so you've an amazing set.
Remember me when you come into your kingdom? Yeah.
Yeah.
So he's a king.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, yeah, he So that's the as as you say, that's the it may not be the exact words, but he's got that concept of I'm guilty.
He's not I need him to deal with this, and that's my hope.
Yeah.
And actually defended Christ.
This is interesting because we talked about that.
Oh, that that was on my mind.
Yeah, because he defends Christ against the other the other criminal on the side of Christ, doesn't he? Yeah.
You know, that's interesting.
Yeah.
No.
But I have noticed over the years that, you you know people are sort of on the right road, if you can put it that way, when they start not just questioning they start defending Christ or defending Christians, quite an interesting thing to look out for, I think, that something's happened, isn't it, with them? They start saying, well, hold it now.
Don't talk about Christians like that.
You you know, and that's quite interesting.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think we're done for today.
You can join us next time.
Please do join us next time as we carry on this journey.
And, if you've missed any of these episodes, you can catch up with all of them on, on the websites.
And, we did preach through this book some time ago, and, you should be able to find our sermons there on the website.
Any any feedback back or questions that you've got, we'd we'd love to hear or just a note that this is useful and encouraging in some way.
It'd be good to hear.
Anywhere.
Anywhere.
Anyone.
And, that's it.
Thank you.
.