Everyday Cornerstone

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Welcome to this new casts that we are producing as Cornerstone Church.

We have done various different podcast series in the past, which you can catch up on on our website or on our social media or YouTube channels.

And, we're we're gonna be doing something a little different this time around.

We've we've just had the media fast.

So 1st week of February, something we do every year is fast from media and feast on the word of god, and we were looking altogether as a church family at the book of Romans, which was, was was a terrific time.

And there were some great questions that arose from some of the discussions that we were having as we were fellow shipping together, over over this letter.

And, we decided to try to, address some of these questions in in in a couple of podcasts.

So, in in 1 sense, this is, this is mainly, I suppose, for members of Cornerstone Churchill who were involved in that have been asking these questions, but, we're also very pleased if you're joining in from from somewhere else and just listening in and cornerstonechurchkingston.

org.

You can find lots of other things that we do and resources.

So I'm Tom.

I'm 1 of the pastors at the church.

I'm here with Ben and Pete.

Hello? Pastors at the church, and we're going to really be setting up camp in Romans 9 today and trying to deal with some questions that arose from Well, most of the questions are based around chapter 9.

Do you want to read a couple of those? Yep.

Ben that we've had.

So, his question, did god create people who never truly had a chance to be saved.

Did god create people who never truly had a chance to be saved? And that links with a with a question that's quite similar over here, which says, does someone still choose to accept or reject Jesus.

Although we are elected, does someone still choose to accept or reject Jesus.

So I suppose questions that are asking about god's sovereignty about his, purposes of election and about, whether or not humans have the ability to choose, to be saved or not.

Yeah.

Very good questions.

I think when it comes to Romans 9, perhaps a good place to start is that, although a lot of those questions relates to to us as individuals and what has god done for you and for me and for my neighbor, and it arrives at the level of individual.

And that's, you know, ultimately where where we can get to, but it's worth taking a step back and trying to think about what Paul is doing in Romans 9.

He's speaking in much more kind of corporate national terms, isn't he? So, you know, in a in a very simple way.

What what he's trying to do here is at the end of Romans 8, he's been talking about the magnificent love of god that is ours in Christ and about how nothing can separate us from that.

We're, you know, chosen by the father, indueled by the spirit, saved by the son, you know, god in his triune glory has saved us.

And now at the beginning of chapter 9, he's it's like he's thinking about his own people, Israel, and he loves and he's desperate for them to come into the life and love of Christ.

And he says, you know, that he would be willing to be cut off and accursed if it meant that his own brothers and sisters could come in to the love of Christ, which is an amazing evangelistic concern, isn't it? And and it sets the pattern, doesn't it, for for the chapter because people take this chapter, and and take verses of this chapter out of that context.

So here is a man who is at as you say, absolutely passionate, for the salvation of people.

And he's, as you as you say, he's willing to give him, you know, Yeah.

Take let me be a curse and then be saved.

Yeah.

And, and and that heart is what you've got to keep remembering.

That's the beat behind all that he's going to say.

And then when you come into Romans chapter 10, sorry if I broke into your flow there, But this whole idea that, you know, we've gotta preach the gospel clearly so people understand so that they may hear the message.

People need to hear the message, and they may call on the law to be safe.

And, and and that's the framework of this whole thing.

Yeah.

And he he feels like that as he looks at the nation of Israel.

And then he goes on to describe how privileged they are.

You know, theirs is the divine glory.

He says, I mean, that's a that's a threat.

There is the adoption, the covenants, the receiving of the law.

He's saying that they're so privileged.

They had so many blessings, in their history.

And yet, they don't seem to be coming to the very messiah whom those scriptures were pointing to.

What has gone wrong? And that's the question he's dealing with.

Has the word of failed.

And then he begins to say, well, no, because it's actually never dependent upon human effort and works or privileges is always found its root in the mercy and the compassion of god.

Yep.

So so that's that's good news.

Sorry.

Just that that's good news because what he's saying is, yeah, you know, Therefore, god is always going to have a people.

If it depends upon his compassion Yeah.

And his foreknowledge, not upon us, He's always gonna have his people, even if that is now gonna spread out gloriously and include people who weren't his people and nations that weren't Nations, gentiles.

So it's here to say election means success story for the gospel because it depends on god success on god's mercy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and and that verse verse 16 in some ways is a central verse in chapter 9.

It does not therefore depend on man's desire or effort, but on god's mercy.

Yeah.

It's all about god's mercy.

It's sure he'll have a people.

His mercy is always uh-uh everlasting.

So what so someone's question was, does someone choose to accept or reject Jesus, on the basis of what we just said? People would people do have a choice, and their their choice is always to reject Jesus.

Yeah.

So it's not down to, human desire or effort.

Why why salvation not down to human desire effort? Because our desire is away from Christ.

Our effort is always away from Christ.

And Paul rubs that in.

He says, look at look at the Israelites.

They were a people who had the divine glory.

They had the covenant.

They had the law.

They had the temple worship and the promises.

They had all of that and yet, what did they choose? They chose to reject Christ.

Yes.

And so why would anyone, especially the gentiles, be in a position to choose Christ.

They have less reason to choose Christ.

Yes.

The people who had the most reason ever to choose god chose to reject him.

Yeah.

And that's why we need god's mercy.

Yes.

God needs to intervene.

But he's made that, hasn't he? That's why you could again take all of these in the context of the whole book of Romans.

He's shown us that we're utterly sinful.

Yeah.

He's shown us that we're dead in our in.

You can do nothing.

You know, you're blinded.

You're dead.

The the I think the problem is underlying this sort of choice thing is that we've got this idea, a couple of ideas that basically humans are banging on the door of heaven saying, let me in.

Let me in.

I love you.

I love you.

Let me in.

And god's saying, no.

I haven't, I don't like you.

Yes.

And you're not on the invitation list.

I might let him in.

Yes.

Eeny, meeny, meeny, moe Yeah.

Him.

Yep.

And that's that's such a Arthur distortion.

You couldn't get more wrong.

Yeah.

None of us are banging on the door.

We're all running to hell as fast as we can.

Yep.

We're all loving our sin.

So it's not even that, I'm I'm chained to sin.

And I and I'm sort of pulling on the chain saying, let me free, let me free.

Yeah.

The whole idea in the scriptures show us that we're saying, I don't love Christ.

Yep.

I don't like the light of the world.

You know, we're like those little creatures that when you pick up a rock, you know, the little bugs under the rock, if you pick, or if you go to my compost bin, I'll open the top of the bin There are millions of little bugs, you know, little cheese hogs, and all of those things.

As soon as I take the the cheese hogs.

Cheese hogs.

Yeah.

Well, it's it's it's it's 1 of the name for woodlows.

Oh, yeah.

So woodlows have loads of name as Pil Bug wood louse, cheese hogs.

Sorry.

I'm never using what I was caught caught by it, but I lift up the the the lid and suddenly, the cheese hogs or whatever you wanna call them are going, ah, light.

Get under.

Get in the dark.

Yep.

Christ has come into the world, says John.

Yeah.

And we haven't said, Lovely.

There he is.

It's just what I wanted.

It's like, get out of my way.

Kill him.

Isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

So the next question is, did god designers like that.

Why, you know, that's what people are asking.

Yes.

You've got to get the fall and Paul's talk talked about that Yep.

In Romans.

In Romans chapter 6, you know, 1 man sins were all part of the sin.

We fought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think just to just to underline I think 1 of the things, that we can get confused about when it comes to this is this notion of free will and I think lots of us do believe that we are born into the world neutral in our relationship to god and that we do have the capacity to turn our own hearts back to him.

But that just cannot be made to fit with script So if you look at even something like Ephesians 2, you know, we're born dead in our transgressions and sins, alive only to disobedience, and to the spirit of the age, which is which is Satan.

And so, if by free will, people mean, are choices are important when it comes to god and how we respond to the gospel.

Well, we wanna affirm that and say, yeah, our choices are important.

We are accountable.

We are responsible.

We are responsible.

But if people mean, yes, I'm actually born, you know, with the ability to change my own heart, love, and choose god's way and free myself from sin I've been born with, well, the answer is no.

That's not that's not how we're taught.

We're we're born dead in our trans expressions and sins, and we need god to make the decisive difference in our lives to step in to illuminate our hearts and minds, fill us with his spirit, lead us to son justifies by faith, and all of that is the work of sovereign grace.

Now the way he does that is not independent of our affections and So he doesn't just suddenly zap it upon you.

His his gracious saving works by realigning our thoughts and our loves towards him.

So He works through our choices and our real decisions.

But in the end, the reason for our salvation is in his sovereign grace because we're born in sin.

You know? You see that, in verse, was it 2029 of, chapter, the Romans chapter 9? It says it It is just as Isaiah said previously.

Unless the lord almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like sodom.

We would have been like Gamora.

There's there's if god had left us to our own devices.

Without mercy.

Without mercy.

This is where you and I and all of listening would be.

Yeah.

Not calling for mercy, even.

Exactly.

So, I mean, Paul in a feature, I mean, you know, I don't wanna go out of Romans too much, but in a sense, this is a summary of what he's been saying in Romans in ephesians too.

He says, as for you, you were dead in your transgressions and said, dead.

Yeah.

In which you live, when you follow the ways of this world, of the rulers of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

All of us, lived among them at 1 time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature, following its desires and thoughts.

Like the rest, we were by nature objects of Roth, but, I think Romans 9 is a but But because of his great love for us, god who is rich in mercy made us alive in Christ even though we were dead in transgressions and sin.

Yep.

And by grace, you have been saved.

And I think Romans 9 is just emphasizing that.

Yeah, I think I think that's right.

So that that's what he's what he's dealing with there, isn't it? And, and, yeah, I I think I think a a lot of our a lot of our issues be come because we don't we don't really believe that about humanity.

And as I say, we do believe that we can we can turn ourselves turn ourselves back back to god by ourselves, but now we need him to to intervene and and rescue us.

Well, that's the modern gospel.

Yeah.

That we're under 24 hours a day is that, you know, believe in yourself, rescue yourself, find yourself, It's all it's all the modern gospel, isn't it? That that, and god should be pleased with you.

Be proud of yourself.

Are you ought to be proud of you? Yeah.

And I think it's right.

Yeah.

The opposite.

And I think I think 1 of the things we have to do, and this is slightly changing tack a little bit is with a with a lot of, big Bible truths like this.

We have to, hold things in contention, really, and and realize that there are lots of things that we that we simply, just we'll never be able to fully get our heads around.

And there is a time for us to say, look, you know, for thousands of years of church history, good faithful people have been talking about this disagreeing about it.

There is a time for us just to put our hands over our mouths and say, you are god, and, you know, I'm not.

But and yet, there there are things that we can know.

So So we we know, don't we as well, that although god, predestines and elects his people to Salvation before the world began, In other words, nothing in us, but all in him.

There are choices and decisions with regard to the gospel still really matter.

And that's just how those 2 things go together in the Bible.

So, you know, when Jesus says, come to me all who are weary and have laden, if words mean anything at all, then that is a free offer.

You know, cut all who are in front of me, can come to me and find Salvation rests for their weary souls.

That's a free offer that's made.

Presumably, because people right there and then have the capacity, you know, are able to respond.

It could could come to him.

For that life.

And so on the last day, when we get to the judgement throne, yet no 1 will be able to say, well, the only reason I'm not going with you is because you didn't allow me to choose you.

The the responsibility is that our doorstep you know, we didn't do what we should have done with the knowledge that we had, and therefore, our choices really matter.

And so what we've gotta get with this is the difference between holding truths, intention, and contradictions.

You know, if we were to say, you know, god knows and chooses those who are his, god doesn't know and doesn't choose, that would be a contradiction.

Or if we were to say, our choices really matter, our choices don't matter at all.

That's a contradiction.

But to be able to say, In some mysterious sense, god foreknows and chooses those those who will belong to him apart from anything in and before the foundation of the world.

And yet, our choices really matter, and we are responsible for what we do, we can we have to hold those 2 things together.

And you were saying before we started recording that that, you know, what great confessions faith do is they they draw the boundary lines.

And they say these things we know, but if we start breaking over the fence, well, we're gonna be in the river or on the road, and we're gonna be in trouble.

Let's stay within the safety of what god has revealed to us.

Yeah.

And if we can't exactly go behind curtain and work out how those 2 things gel in every area, that's okay.

You know, but what we mustn't do is compromise on either of those things that the Bible, you know, explained to us.

And Paul's doing that in this letter, isn't he? Because he he goes up to a boundary low.

He says, is god unjust? A boundary line that we know theologically about god.

Is god unjust? No? Okay.

So stop thinking that way.

Yes.

Stop trying to get a theology in your mind.

I think Scott is unjust because he's not.

And that's what we need to do when thinking about big difficult things like this is draw these boundary lines.

Stand on what we know to be true.

And as as Pete said many times about this passage, that the key word if you were doing a a a word search through this chapter is mercy.

And so another big boundary line in your thinking is mercy.

So if if if you stray outside of that and you're thinking come back come back into the the the god of the of the Bible who is a merciful god.

That's that's definitely the big thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, another thing.

So sorry.

I'm probably going on too much, and we're we're jumping around a bit here, but we we we're trying to I mean, I think I think some of the difficulty is from texts like verse 17, don't they, of Romans? For the scripture says to Ferro, I raised you up for this very purpose that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

And what is the power there? Well, it's his it's god's coming in judgment upon pharaoh, isn't it? And so people look at and say, so pharaoh has been specifically raised up just as an object of destruction, just to say something about god in in the world and his justice and his holiness And I think that is the case, isn't it? So what we're told here is that Ferro, was raised up.

And in the judgment of the living god that fell upon pharaoh, his holiness and glory and power was seen in the world, And then when you go through the Old Testament, the nations hear about this, and they say, we better not mess, you know, with have have you heard what happened? We better not mess with that god because pharaoh was raised up to display god's holy justice to the world.

And yet, if we only take that text, we just arrive at the big birds eye view and the endpoint of a process that involved Ferro's own accountability Yeah.

So these things don't go together, the raising up of a person for judgment, and Ferro's own accountability in that he had chance after chance after chance to respond to the prophetic word of god, and he would not listen He kept hardening his own heart against the word of god.

And so it's not that god, you know, pharaoh is born and god is suddenly just Well, I fancy someone to raise up for destruction.

Who will it be? Even any mining moe, you know, that that little bold baby in Egypt, he'll do.

It it's it's raised up within a process of his own hardening of his heart against the word of god.

That's right.

And pharaoh isn't any different to any of us.

Yeah.

So I think that you that's why you need to go back to the story and read the story.

So, you know, god comes to him through his prophet Moses, speaks to him, no, I won't obey, speaks to I won't obey speak to him.

No.

I won't obey speak to him.

No.

I won't obey.

Speak to him.

No.

I won't obey.

You know, 10 times.

And the whole idea is that we're from that same lump, of of, you know, because he goes on and talks about the potter and the lump of clay.

We're all from that same lump of clay.

We're all with pharaoh.

We all say no to god's word.

We all want to be our own king.

And our own pharaoh and rule ourselves and not have people worshiping the living god.

So we're all under that judgment.

And what god has done in that whole, process is to show us just how rotten and hard mankind is.

Even with the word of god coming from someone like Moses, you know, it's not even like, you know, Ben or Pete or Tom.

This is Moses, the great Moses coming with Aaron.

And, he's saying, no.

And and and, and god is showing us this is what you are like.

You great lump of clay.

But I will have mercy on whom I'll have mercy.

I'll be the 1 that tells you that you need to put the blood on the door post.

And will you listen to that? I'll be the 1 that mercifully saves some.

And he and that's what he did.

And and Moses was a murderer.

That's what we've been looking in Seoul as we've gone through Exodus.

Yeah.

That Moses is is is from the same lompas pharaoh because he killed and murdered, an Egyptian, didn't he? Before god, raised him up for good purposes.

Yeah.

So it's not like god made Moses an exceptional piece of clay.

And god made, Ferrer a dodgy piece of clay, but they were both filthy, moldy, rotten bits of clay, as you just said.

And then god will take Moses and what mercy to take that moldy bit of clay into to to form something out of it that way.

Because we would never know how sinful pharaoh was unless we he went 10 times.

Yeah.

So if god intervened right at the beginning and pharaoh said, alright.

Off you go.

You know, I'll submit to god.

We would have said, why did, you know, why did god why did god kill Ferro? Yeah.

Humans aren't that bad.

They're not that bad, but we just see how stubborn we are in our sin.

Yeah.

So god is revealing these things to us Yeah.

To show us then.

Wow.

Yep.

You know, the wow of being saved.

Yes.

Isn't it? 10 things it took.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when Christ died on the cross for us Yeah.

Wow.

It took the son of god to die for me Mhmm.

To save me from my sin.

That is mercy.

Yeah.

And it brings more glory to god, I think, this way as well.

It's more glorious to god that he, that he saved us and gave us eyes to see our sin, isn't it? And so it's it is doubly wow.

It's wow.

He provided a way for me to be safe, but wow, he gave me eyes to see it and wow, he gave me a a desire for it and wow, he gave me legs to walk towards it and, more praise to god, as a result.

And so this is what we're saying, isn't it? But that, you know, it it's not that we're all born neutral.

We are actually all born in a state of hostility against god And rather than giving us all what we deserve, he graciously chooses to to bring back and redeem of people for himself, in order to demonstrate his great compassion and mercy, but also in his sovereign will passes over others and gives them over to the full consequences of this in without bringing them into that life in Christ.

So that's, I think, the best way to put it rather than saying that he's got all of humanity before him and he's saying Eeny meeny miny moe heaven hell heaven hell, heaven hell, the way it's communicated is that we have all chosen hell in independence from god, and he has graciously redeemed some and passed over others and left.

And it's the lump of k.

It's a potter illustration that he's used here, isn't it? And as to as to why, sorry, as to why, exactly.

And I think this is where, you know, the question really becomes difficult.

You know, as to why, you know, I would have been chosen to belong to Christ, and my neighbor at this stage has not been, or make it more personal, you know, brother, mother, father, whoever.

There we there there is a secret council of god that we just don't know.

We don't know.

We know that it was not because he saw something in us, which was better and more desirable.

No.

Yep.

So we know that and we know he's always just, but we don't know as to the exact reasons.

And, you know, I think there is a time with all and I think this is what Paul is doing with that with that potter clay illustration.

He's very happy to kind of take us so far with this doctor but then to say, you know, there is a time when we just need to put our hands over our mouths and say, who are you to speak back to that which formed you know, why did you make me like this? You know? And I think that that's the trouble with us and god, isn't it? We're always trying to close the gap between and creator, you know, we don't want a big god who humbles us with his greatness.

We want 1 that we can smooth the edge off, put in a box, understand, and in doing so, we become god over him, really, because we know all that he is, and we've got him figured out But actually, you know, god has got rough edges, yeah, and he's big and he's bigger than us, and he knows more than us.

And there are secret things that belong to him And, you know, if if if there is to be a god, surely it's gonna be 1 who disturbs and contradict us all the time.

Yeah? If he's gonna be a real god, and so I think in the end, this is this is good in the humbling effect it should have a policy.

And that's his whole argument.

He's saying that it's it's down to god's word, god's promise, children of the promise.

That's the first half of it, isn't it? You know, he chooses, Isaac, Isaac over ishmael, you know, ishmael is not a child of the promise.

Isaac was.

It's all down to god.

Yeah.

It's not that Isaac is better than ishmael.

It's down to god's promise, his word.

He says, I'll save you.

I'll save you, and then it's the same with, Jacob and Esoar you know, he doesn't go that he doesn't go down the line of the firstborn.

He goes down the line of, who each all down to god's promise.

He's chosen those people.

And and that's that's what's going on here, isn't it? And then even that quote in verse 14 where it says, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion, if you go back and see where that is placed, and that's why you need to read the scriptures, isn't it? That is placed with Moe's god saying that to Moe's when Moses has come down, the, the mountain with the with the, commandments of god, and the children of Israel are all worshiping false gods and doing horrific the ugly things.

It's like the wedding day, there's adultery going on on the wedding day.

These are supposed to be the people of god and they're committing adultery with other with other gods.

And Moses breaks the commandments, and god says, I'll mercy on whom I have mercy.

Oh, it's amazing.

That's like your wedding day, and your wife is committing adultery and you have every right to bring the whole law and say, that law against them and say, how dare you? You get out of my life.

But god in his kindness, I'll have mercy on some of these.

It's extraordinary mercy.

And I suppose all of this as well.

This is a letter written to a a church, isn't it? And it's to teach them and admonish them and comfort them.

And so all of this is to is to warm their hearts in a way.

I mean, 1 of the questions we've got is, how is this meant to make us feel? And the answer is comforted.

It is meant to bring you comfort because, look, you dead in your sins, you, the adulterous woman on the wedding night have been saved by the merciful god.

Who has chosen to has chosen you.

And so, though, this is that this is, you know, he's touching on the secret council of god, these are things which we cannot get to the bottom of.

He is drawing up some some boundaries on the field of play.

And saying, don't stray too far that way.

Remember he's merciful.

So if in your thinking, you end up with a god who's not merciful, who's not loving, who is unjust.

You have you have straight off the off the field of play.

Or you're even a god that where you say, well, we don't need to preach the gospel because he choose is we don't need to do something.

You're off the field of play.

Yeah.

It's not the god anymore.

Yeah.

It is a false god and and, cannot be proved or supported by any scriptural example.

I mean, because, you know, I think it's fair to say that Paul, you know, believed in predestination.

And yet, you know, what does he do in Romans 10? Yeah.

He says the great need of this world is preachers.

You know, how how will they believe if we don't send someone to preach to them? So you know, spurgeon had a a prayer, which was lord, you're the 1 who elects people, elect more, elect more, and that was his prayer.

And and he's not wrong on that.

No.

He's not he's not wrong.

Verse 1, chapter 10, brothers and sisters, my heart's desire, and prayer to god for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's praying for the nation of Israel.

Yeah.

That's right.

And he it's because he elect both the means and the end.

So he elected people to salvation, but he also elects the means of which they're going to come.

And that will be the prayer and preaching of words.

So, you know, you can't say, well, there's loads of people elected over there.

We won't bother preaching or praying.

Because he's the means by which he will bring those elect ones is the prayerful commitment of his people to go in.

Yeah.

To them.

And so and he hasn't told us who he's elected.

It's not like we know that number 27, is that he's got an e floating over the top.

He would save us a lot of money in flyers.

Wouldn't it? Yeah.

Because we would just give number 27, number 28, and 31, and then we'd just preach to them and not talk to anybody else.

Yeah.

Our job is to preach of the world.

Spurgeon put, again, he's so brilliant.

He put he's he's like a door.

You're you're you're 1 side of the door and over the door, it's got come, you know, come to Christ, come all ye who will be saved, you know, come.

Yeah? And we're looking at the door And god in his mercy, obviously, affects us to say I want I I need Christ.

Yeah.

That's the spirit of work working in us because we were dead in our sins.

We go through the door and you look back over the the top of the door when you're inside and it says, the elect of god chosen by god.

Yeah.

And that's what it is, isn't it? You know, that's I think that's right.

Yeah.

And I think I think there's a sense in which in the end or, you know, although we we can all react to things like this, because it is it is humbling.

I think there's a sense in which all Christians sort of do believe this.

I pray they do.

Yeah.

Because in his little introduction, to to a great book called, Evangilism and the sovereignty of God, J.

I.

Packer talks about that, and he makes the point that, look, when you listen to Christian pray, whether there are a million or Calvinists.

I know that we, you know, don't have to think about those words too much.

But, you know, everybody will pray something like lord, I pray that you would help my neighbor to Open their eyes.

Or please save them.

And we're acknowledging there that, actually, if anything is gonna change in that person's life.

God, you've got to make the difference.

You know, we we never pray, we, you know, well, we wouldn't pray Thank you.

Thank you, Lord.

I was good enough to to, listen to you.

Thank you, Lord.

I'm better than my brother, in my morality thank you, lord, that, even if you say please help them to come to their own right conclusions about you, we're still God still is we're still asking god to do that for them to make them have the right conclusions.

So we're acknowledging if this person has gotta change, there's gotta be something outside of them that is gonna graciously intervene to begin to change the direction of their lives in a godward direction.

Yep.

And that's in some ways all all of this doctrine really is, isn't it? Yeah.

Yep.

So what were the question? Have we sort of answered the question? The last 1 was about Jacob and Esaw? Yeah.

Right at the beginning.

Yeah.

Right at the beginning, Tom said that this is in the context of nations.

And Jacob obviously is renamed Israel after he wrestles with god.

That's what Israel means, 1 who wrestles with god, and then that becomes the nation of Israel.

So there's definitely a nation thing going on here, but you wanna to talk about, the word hated.

Oh, well, I didn't want to talk about it.

Yeah.

I mean, I I I think you've you've you've gotta be careful pushing to its ultimate conclusion.

I think it's a comparison thing.

And I I think most people would say that.

It's not that god hates he's not a sinner.

He doesn't sin.

He doesn't hate.

But, you know, it's a bit it's like well, the illustration I'd give, if if if there were twins, yeah, let's say you weren't married, Ben Mhmm.

Which opportunities you Yeah.

But, let's say you weren't married, and there's twins.

There's Kerry and there's Camilla.

Yeah? And they look at the same, They smell the same.

The hairdo's the same.

They dress the same.

They, you know, eat the same.

They've got the same humor, all the background, all of that, but you chose Kerry.

You're not Camilla.

Yeah.

And you chose to marry her, you know, you know, you you've chosen 1.

And, in 1 sense, you've rejected the other.

Yeah.

And you could say, well, you love 1 and you hate other, but you don't, you know, it's it's just that you've chosen 1 to love and to cherish, and there's the sort of, that's what's going on Yeah.

Jesus uses a similar tone of phrase, doesn't he, at 1 point? When he says, anyone who does not love, hate their mother or brother, is not fit to follow me.

Yeah.

And that is, obviously, we're told to honor a mother and father and to love our brothers and sisters.

And Yeah.

So it's it's a turn of phrase to show if, you know, it's from the lesser to the greatest sort of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Is that chapter 9? I mean, you know, you can go and listen to all kinds of preachers on this, and and and I would recommend you do, but I did, I think, 2 or 3 sermons on Romans 9 whenever it was 4, 5 years ago.

And, we go over this stuff, and why not go back and listen to them? Yeah.

You can do that on our on our website, which as I said, Cornerstonechurchkingston.

org.

And, you know, do do put anything in a in a, you know, if you if you want perhaps a further clarification or or a question that you can you can comment, under the videos or, or drop us an email or let us know in in whatever way.

And, we're going to be doing a few more of these.

We're gonna be thinking about chapter 11.

Is that right? 13 chapter 11 and, yeah, chapter 11 13, in days weeks to come.

So do look out for those.

And, thank you for for tuning in today.

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