We're here recording this, this podcast episode as a as a follow-up, really, to 2 sermons that we've done recently at Cornerstone Church on Matthew 6 verse 12.
So this is the lord's prayer, and it's the part where Jesus calls us to forgive to be forgiven.
So to go to the father for forgiveness, forgive us our debts, and we looked at that in 1 sermon, you know, what it means to actually approach the father who loves to forgive and to have our debts canceled by Christ.
But then the second half, which although we did divide from the first half.
You you can't really do, but the second half, which says, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And on Sunday morning, just gone.
We were we were trying to or I was trying to, unpack that a bit and and show what it does mean and what it doesn't mean.
And then to connect it to these words in verse 14, where Jesus says, for if you forgive men, when they sin against you, your heavenly father will also give you.
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your father will not forgive your sins.
And so quite strike words.
And what I found when I was preparing for this sermon is that I was going to originally do it on on 1 Sunday, and then it morphed into 2 Sundays, and now it's become sort of 2 and a half Sundays, really.
But I think that's because this this issue of forgiveness, is 1 that touches almost everybody personally.
Because we all know, what it's like to to sin against other people.
And we all know something of what it's like to be sinned against by other people and some people have been sinned against in in great and sustained ways in their lives.
And so this is 1 of those topics where you you just can't divorce it from your own personal life and your personal relationships and your personal history.
And therefore, it touches close to home for lots of of people and therefore throws up all all kinds of questions.
And so we're just going to sort of talk in a roundabout way about some of some of the questions since that sermon and some of the things we wanna say a bit more about.
So what do you think, Pete? What do you think is the best 1 to with? I don't know.
Well, I I thought your connection to verse: 1214 through 1st 30.
That sounds so sort of obvious.
Yeah.
But I think it's very easily taken as a separate thing, isn't it? I thought was brilliant and really really helpful.
And I think what Jesus is talking, like the proverbs, isn't he? With with without sort of in 1 sense without subtlety.
It's a very sort of black and white thing, isn't it? But he's brought in this whole business of the evil 1.
And we need to be delivered from the evil 1.
And we know that the evil 1 is certainly not about forgiveness.
No.
The evil 1 is about, you know, getting your pound of flesh and, he's about destruction and he's a liar and he he he's a murderer from the beginning.
So the whole evil one's emphasis is 1 in death murder lies.
Yes.
And so I love that connection.
I thought it was a really, really important point that I've I've I've personally never sort of heard before for, or I don't think connected myself.
And then Jesus talks in, as I say, in this sort of proverbial way, doesn't he? Yeah.
That it feels so big.
If you haven't forgiven, you are not going to be forgiven.
It it he puts it in those terms.
It feels like the wrong way around and it it feels like, oh, this is salvation by works.
I am not going to be saved.
I'm not going to be forgiven.
Unless I have forgiven.
So I need to forgive first before I'm forgiven by God.
And it feels like that, doesn't it? Yes.
And I think he does it that way in order to say, Hey, this is massively serious in the church outside of the church for for for Christians, forgiveness is so important that I want to get your attention and I want you to think very hard about it and not just miss it.
Is is that right? I think that is right.
Yeah.
And, it is put in a deliberately startling way.
And in 1 sense, it's good that people think like that and ask that question.
And because if we've actually heard and understood the word, I think any thinking person is gonna ask that question.
You know, what does it like? Am I not if I don't forgive this person, am I not gonna be forgiven? And I think Jesus' intention, there is to pour a bucket of ice water over our heads, as you say, and say, no, this is this is really significant.
And when you go through the new testament in colossians and, ephesians and in other places, you see that the marriage between god's forgiveness and are forgiving of 1 another.
It it it comes up all the time, you know, forgive as god in Christ forgave you.
Bear with 1 another and forgive as you were forgiven.
And so connecting our own forgiveness before god without forgiveness of other people, is is is a a quite common thing in the bible.
And I think here, 1 of the things that we've gotta do is, firstly, allow it to hit us as it has come to us.
So I think our tendency sometimes can be to try to qualify things nuance things and we bury it in so much other information that we kind of take the sting and the shock out of it is not which is not what we're meant to do.
We're supposed to feel it as it comes.
But having said that, we do have this principle of using the Bible to interpret the Bible.
And so at some point, we do have to stand back and say, okay.
What is this saying? What isn't it saying? And we know from the rest of the teaching of the bible, that, that my salvation is not conditional upon my forgiveness of other people.
In other words, it's not like on the last day, I'm going to be saved by the blood of Christ 99% and also my own virtuous life 1%.
So it won't be a combination of what Christ did for me on the cross and my forgiveness of others, all my patience with others, all my gentleness with others, or with any other you I'm called to because in the end, I'm saved by Grace and Grace alone.
And yet, it is impossible in Jesus's mind to separate a forgiven heart, from a forgiving heart.
In other words, some heart, a person who knows the mercy of Christ and then goes on to be vengeful and unforgiving and bitter is just not what the holy spirit produces when he saves a person.
And so here, you Jesus has stated it that the the challenging way around, if you like, that that the more, perhaps the way around that better fits with our understanding is to say, if you've been forgiven by Christ, you will forgive.
But he turns it on its head and says, if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven by my father, which in essence is the same point.
It just cuts us deeper when it's put the other way around.
And that's what I was trying to show as well at the beginning with the power of the ful servant that this is both a a disturbing story and an impossible story, you know, because what Jesus says at the end of that parable is, that guy who refused to extend forgiveness to his servant after receiving such grace will in the end be thrown into prison and tortured what Jesus says until he's paid back everything he owes, which is the same point he makes in verse 14, but in story form, you know.
So know, you know, the the the answer is my forgiveness of other people, is not a justifying virtue if you can put it that way, but it is impossible to separate it from a justified heart.
If I've been forgiven, I will give.
That's that's Just working that through then.
This is what I'm wondering.
And then putting this prayer again in the context of the sermon on the mountain.
I think that's really important.
Because it is part of the sermon on the mound.
It's sort of like, let let's say I come to a point and I'm thinking, do you know, I don't know whether I have forgiven that person.
I I I read what they did to me was so massive.
And it's it's trying, isn't it, in the parable? Sorry, where was the parable? Matthew 18.
Matthew 18.
Yeah.
Most of 7.
It it's trying to to say, look, let's get this in perspective here.
What you've done to God, just think about it.
To trot in other words, it is applying the gospel, isn't it? What you've done to God is 1,000,000,000 of pounds worth of damage.
Yeah.
Compared to what someone's done to you, which is a few silver coins, or or it it may be big, but it's nothing compared.
And so it's sort of applying the gospel all the time to ourselves.
And I wonder if you go back to the beginning of the sermon on the mountain where it says, blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, blessed are those who mourn for they'll be comforted.
Bless to those, that that are meek and hungry and thirsty for righteousness.
And I think there's something in this whole battle with forgiveness that should sort of drive us to the gospel and say, I I am poor in spirit.
I am I I do mourn for my sin.
Yeah.
And it's it's trying to see the apply the gospel to ourselves all the time so that there is an element of forgiveness for those who have done me harm.
And they may have done me real harm.
And as you said, the bags of silver or what it what what was are not insignificant that compared to what I owe God, they're insignificant.
So it's bringing god into the picture, my sin into the picture, and a plot constantly applying the gospel to my situation.
Yes.
And it will be a backlog, but I think you're right.
It's about a change of the orientation of your heart, you know, you you are now because of Christ going to move in a forgiveness direction.
You know, no matter how painful it is and you might fail and you might fall again.
But, fundamentally, you're heading north, not south.
You know, that that's the way you're going.
Whereas to the the unconverted heart is is not go is not wanting to go that way Yeah.
Has no inclination to go that way.
They only wanna go back into forgiveness, into unforgiveness and bitterness, or a sort of stoic pretending, really, where you just you you just try to let go and get rid of them altogether and you don't properly deal with the issue.
I mean, I think it's that's where people are at.
Yeah.
That bit there How do I know? Yes.
I've forgiven someone.
They've hurt me or they're carrying on hurting me.
Yeah.
What are the elements to say? And and justice may well need to be done.
Yes.
If if if if if if you've done, you know, violence against me or against my family, I have to allow you, you know, that person can't be set free to carry on with the virus.
No.
No.
Definitely.
And they may not be repentant.
Yeah.
They may say, I'm glad I did this.
And laugh about the the harm they've done to me, or they may carry on slandering me.
How do I know of a given that person? And I think we've got a sort of I don't I don't know whether this is help, that there seems to be under the umbrella of forgiveness, is almost like a line from, not seeking revenge to reconciliation.
Yeah.
So between the 2 r's.
And as you said, the the gospel brings utter reconciliation the harm we've done to god Yes.
He's not only forgiven, he's brought reconciliation and reconciliation isn't I I just put up with 1.
There's a joy and a beauty in hand to hand loving relationship.
And that's what the gospel does.
Yeah.
But along the way for me, if someone is unrepentant laughing at the sin, carrying on doing the sin against me.
My sort of forgiveness is seen in I am not going to seek revenge on them or their family.
I'm not going to ask for eye for eye tooth for tooth.
I'm actually gonna walk another mile with them, and I'm going to pray for them, but that doesn't mean to say I'm silly in my prayers, or may may they be blessed? It's actually the blessing would be if they're repentant.
Is is that right? Yes.
Yeah.
That's right.
And I think that's why there is a big difference between reconciliation and forgiveness, which in the gospels, you said, they're they're part the same, glorious gift.
But it just very and so what Jesus is calling us to here, I don't think is an unrealistic thing because there are some sins that are committed against people which are so grievous and so historic and, might even still be going on.
That reconciliation is not possible or desirable.
You you know, you don't even desire it.
And I think that's a slightly different thing.
And so we're not Jesus is not calling us to a sort of you've got to go and shake their hands and pretend this is everything's normal and that because that's all part of forgiveness.
No.
It it might mean you you let go of bitterness in your heart, but you still ring the police on them, or is it so that so that justice can be done? And so this is, I don't think reconciliation is not the same thing as forgiveness, but as you say, what the Christian is trying to do at night of the cross and it is a battle.
And it is periodic.
I think, you know, there'll be times when it is easier and harder and feels like it's done, and then it resurfaces again.
That's all part of it.
I think a Christian is saying, okay, lord, it is you it is yours to avenge.
It is yours to repay.
You know, I have to, in the end, trust that.
That you you are gonna do the right thing by this person.
And you have not entrusted me with the job of bringing upon somebody else.
So there's a faith issue there.
There's a real faith thing.
Do I do I believe that God is going to do that? Help my unbelief, help me to trust that you're gonna you're gonna do that.
And then there is the praying for the enemies.
And when Jesus says, And, I think it's I I can't remember where but I think pipe John Piper made this point in 1 of his articles.
When Jesus says, pray for enemies, in the sermon on the mound, He's not he's I don't think he means pray for their destruction or pray that they would be beset with difficulties in their life, but rather pray the very best for them and and to sort of sincerely mean it, you know.
And the best for them would be ultimately that they came to Christ.
So it's not that they get the best job or that but that they come to Christ and that god would restrain their evil, you know, pray for their enemies that their evil would be halted and limited and they turn from it and change and be converted And I think a Christian heart is wanting even an enemy to come to that saving knowledge of Christ and to leave their evil behind.
Well, that's part of forgiveness is you've you've got to a place where you actually are wanting that for a person, you know, and and meaning it in in all the battles of that of that.
And and Paul does this in in Romans 12 and again, so do not repay evil for evil.
That would be unforgiveness.
Yes.
That's, revenge.
And he he says, be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
So you need to, in this situation of whatever's going on, needs to be looking to do the right thing so people can see you're doing the right thing.
That's part of forgiveness.
If it is possible as as far as it depends on you live at peace with everyone, it's not always possible.
No.
Is it? You you but but from your angle, you know, try to do what you can.
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave her at room for god's wrath.
So, you know, that this situation may well be wicked and really evil and injustice has been done.
And in 1 sense, you just just try to leave that with god.
That's part of forgiveness, isn't it? Knowing that god will judge, in the end.
Do not take revenge of my friend, leaving for god's, Roth for it is written.
It is mine to avenge.
I will repay, says the lord.
On the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him, if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you're you will heat burning calls of his head.
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Now, I used to think that was sort of trying to be nice to him, which would make him sort of angry.
You know, when you've when you're in a car confrontation and you know, that the bloke's really stroppy and angry.
Yeah.
You go for all of the, I'm gonna be overnight because I know it will work him up more.
Yes.
Yeah.
I used to think it meant that.
And I think what it meant.
But the goal there is still to work him up.
It's to work him up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he gets more and more angry and you're feeling more and more sort of righteous.
But the goal, I think, of the the heaping calls on the head is when you have a hot coal on your head, you your attention is brought.
In other words, wow, ow, ow.
So that he can see senses to understand he needs to repent So I think this is so helpful because part of forgiveness is not the feeling that I think you you said is is not, I I might not be able to do anything about him as far as it's concerned from, you know, my job is to to be at peace, but he may not be at peace with me.
And I can't really do much about that.
But what I'm about is I hope he comes senses, so he repents before it's too late.
Yeah.
So if you take something like Let's just sort of root this, this horrific event with a 17 year old boy.
I mean, what possesses a 17 year old boy? Take a knife deliberately go out of his way to slash 6 7 9 year old girls throats.
What what possesses that? If you're a Christian there, what what are you meant to do with that bloke? Well, I think, the there's you're gonna again, what Jesus is calling us to here is not unreal.
So there there there's a there's massive grief there, isn't there? So the road of forgiveness doesn't mean you don't feel the utter horror of sin and the grief of sin, and the sort of outpouring of of lament of what has happened and then who, you know, who would not feel that looking at the story particularly for those involved.
So forgiving isn't a kind of, as I was trying to say, in a certain sort of the Buddhist root of it's really an elude it's sort of an illusion, which if you train your mind, it won't really matter that much.
Yeah.
You know, because It does.
It does matter.
And then it, it's so forgiveness definitely, does not sort of take away, grieving and and lamenting.
And also the seeking of justice, you know, we we we've seen, we've we've talked about that already, but Oh, the pay.
It doesn't take away the pay.
No.
No.
It doesn't absolute horror.
Oh, yeah.
Well, then there's a hole in their lives that's never going to be, never going to be filled.
And how could you not as much as you would not want to daydream about how it worked out.
And and you would just it would just be it's just chain it's just ruined it's changed your life.
And ruined your life in some ways.
So, and wanting justice is is is part of forgiveness.
You know, living in a society where those sorts of wrongs are are punished appropriately.
It it's absolutely right.
But I guess, you know, you but it's not seeking revenge.
Is not seeking relationships.
So if you sort of what those riots have done Yes.
Are pretending.
I mean, it's it's all a lot of pretend isn't it? It's summer and they wanna riot.
Yeah.
But what those riots are doing is looking for anyone that looks the same as this blood.
Or is from the same religion as this bloke or the same sort of town or country, and wanting to smash the hell out of whatever it is is in the way.
Yes.
That that's revenge.
That's revenge.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what Satan wants in in in all of this is because he hates forgiveness, and he hates the freedom that it brings to people and how it glorifies glorifies god.
And so in that situation, again, like, I was just trying to say something more of these are not easy things, but you you've then as a Christian got a choice to make, haven't you? What what am I going to do now? You know, am I going to, with all the difficulty of this, go the root of the cross, which is that as I see the savior dying for for my Richard crimes, I want to move in a forgiveness direction.
I don't want my life to sort of become a dark vortex of of bitterness and plotting and revenge.
I want to know the freedom of what Christ is talking about here and to be able to and to be able to forgive and to trust him with justice and, and and to do that.
I think that's what a Christian is is wanting to do.
Yeah.
But even in the worst price, but that's what I'm saying.
What does forgiveness look like here? It doesn't look like me hugging the bloke? No.
Or even perhaps communicating with the bloke.
It looks like non revenge.
Yes.
So it's not revenge.
I'm not going to his family and saying, what sort of parents are you? You need your head kicks in.
I'm not sort of suddenly campaigning that all rule of London's, because he's redundant, need to go from the country.
I'm and I am leaving justice to god.
You are, and you're not asking for something unlike, it's not that you need to have him Christmas dinner that year or something, you know, and just sort of, you know, pretend and stuff.
It it is about bringing it with to Christ, isn't it? And leaving the justice to him and asking for help even in the face of the worst crimes to begin to wish her best upon an enemy, that that enemy who will be imprisoned for the rest of his life could somehow find Christ in his prison setting and that he would never be released to do something like that again Yes.
That his evil would be restrained and that he could even find forgiveness at the at the cross.
And applying and to want that for him is that I think is what Jesus is.
And the the only way you can do that is back to that parable is that applying the the wickedness that he's done to me or my child or whatever is is only a picture of the wickedness I have done to Christ who we crucified.
Yeah.
We, you know, we killed god it came amongst us.
And and I think it, again, it's trying to apply the gospel as the into that situation.
And I'm desperately hurt, you know, how did the father feel sort of think, you know, and and and that's not trying to be little any hurt is trying to, you know, raise it up.
And even for non Christians, you know, I do think there there is a sense.
I I do think there's part of being made in the image of God is that we do have a a sort of residue.
You know, we're not as depraved as we could be in every area.
There is a residue within us of of the godhead.
And I I think there are people who say he needs to go to hell and I would never I could never forgive that you do his stories like that.
But there are organizations that also exist in order to reconnect that there are actually organizations that if you want to go into prison and talk with someone, has done something to you.
You can, you can, they set it up.
And people do use that, even non Christians because there is a sense of sort of like how am I gonna put this to bed? Am I am I how am I gonna live now? You know, I mean, the truth is he will go to hell.
And he deserves hell, that that kid.
But when you start thinking about that, I don't know whether you ever do that.
That that kid is gonna stand before a holy god and give an account of what he's done and could be in hell.
Then you start thinking, yeah, but I could be in hell for what I've I've done, and then you start trying to apply the gospel.
And then you say, my goodness, that bloke has ruined his entire life.
He's 17.
Yeah.
And, like, you know, then it's easier to pray for that he'll come to his senses because he needs to and he doesn't seem to at the moment and repent, Okay.
Is there anything else we need to to deal with? I mean Well, I mean, I just wanted to What about a Christian? Sorry.
Can I just what about a Christian then? There there there's someone that's genuinely, they are a Christian, yeah, and they've slanted your name or something, you know, because that happens.
What what do you do that that they are Christian? How does that how does forgiveness work itself out? In what you if they're carrying on, they're not repentant, but they are claiming to be a, you know, genuine Christian.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, in 1 sense, I think, lots of the things we've already discussed still apply.
So you you can step back and say, okay, what am I not called to do? Well, I'm not I'm not to do the eye for the eye, which is a justice principle, really, but I'm not gonna do it in the nasty sense of the word.
So I'm not going to say you've salandered me.
Now I'm going to give my life to slander you, and I'm gonna make sure it's at least proportioner, if not more, because you've done this to me.
So the heart that is plotting like that, needs help and needs challenging.
And it's in what sense is a natural response, you know, even as a converted person, your heart, like, goes there, doesn't it? And and so we, you know, but but that's not not the root.
Again, the point of reconciliation without repentance is is really hard.
Forgiveness without repentance but by by god's grace is possible and what what we need to do.
But reconciliation is a different thing.
And, you know, if someone is either continuing to Saunders that the name of your name or a fellow Christian's name, or is even sort of, not acknowledging any wrongdoing there, we can't just pretend no, that hasn't happened and oh, yes, we all say things and you know, isn't it? It's an idyll silly.
You you can't just pretend that hasn't happened, again, because sin is real and it and it and it hurts And so in order for things to get back to a more healthy normal, there does need to be an admission of you know, that was wrong.
I shouldn't have done that.
I've, you know, I'm sorry.
You know, what could can we move forward here? I think if someone is talking like that, are Christians delighted, aren't they? They're they're sort of so happy because that's really where they want to be as well.
But without that, it's very difficult.
And so I think the things we've said about, you know, pro praying the best for that person, praying that they would come to see that the truth of the matter, and not allowing my own life and ministry and family to live under a a horrible cloud.
I don't wanna write that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the and the sort of constant.
Yes.
But the and the other thing to say, just on that you are specifically a better Christian.
I think when the time when the time comes to sort of challenge that behavior, you you appeal to it on gospel grounds.
Whereas if it was a non Christian, you wouldn't say, well, look, come on.
Look at what Christ has done.
Well, you might do, but you you would appeal to in a goth with gospel language, wouldn't you? Yeah.
This is not the way Christ causes to treat each other and and that sort of thing.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Is that right? I think I think so.
I I I I think it comes, as we said, well, I was trying to say earlier, but if you like, you've got this big thing forgiveness.
And there are different, parts, if you like.
I don't know if that's the right term.
There's a non revenge, isn't there? Yes.
That's that's the 1 thing I can do, and that may be the only thing I can do.
Bloke won't let me do anything more.
You know, I'm trying to so I'm just not gonna revenge.
It's not gonna be an eye for eye.
I'm not gonna I'm not as far as from my angle, I'm not going to escalate this thing.
Yeah.
2 full on reconciliation, love being with a person, yeah, sort of stuff.
Yeah.
And in 1 sense, there are different things that I I can and can't do along along along that that way.
Yeah.
But for me to be having running video nasties in my head and chopping the person up and seeking revenge in Yeah.
Is not forgiveness.
No.
Yeah.
No.
That's right.
Brilliant.
It's a very It is.
Personal.
That's the thing with it.
And and Christ is saying, Hey, make sure you do hard work on this.
Yeah.
Isn't he? Yeah.
He is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And and it's it's cut look, I think it's, you know, acknowledging the complexity of it is quite important because you know, the this this whole question of, you know, is is god's forgiveness exactly like ours because you know, god's forgiveness of us is conditional in in the end on our repentance and faith in the gospel you know, people who don't repent and trust trust aren't forgiven.
So there is a condition in receiving forgiveness And therefore, should our forgiveness of other people be conditional? In other words, should we not extend it until they say, sorry.
Should we hold on to it until we say, sorry.
And I think that's a complicated question because in 1 sense, we're not called and we're not able to be exactly like god.
In in every area, you know.
So quite often what we're called to do is grounded in the fact that we're different from god and we're not like god, you know, so forgive 1 another as god in Christ forgave you, you know.
There's I think he's just wanting us to be living the goss but all the time, and I think this is part of what Christian is, yeah, is applying that gospel, reminding ourselves of the gospel isn't it? That's how we're meant to live.
That's right.
So that, you know, I am pouring spirit, but I'm but, you know, I'm blessed because of a gospel.
And And I'm also sorry to finish that point.
Also, I'm a sinner.
That's my problem.
My god is not a sinner.
I'm a sinner.
And that's a that makes things very different.
So Yeah.
Okay.
I've got a choice to make.
Haven't I? Someone sings against me.
They're not repentant.
Okay.
Now, I've got a choice to make.
What am I gonna do? Yeah.
Am I going to say, well, god's forgiveness is conditional.
Therefore, I'm not gonna forgive until that person repents.
Okay, I could say that, but what's gonna happen to my heart then? Let's just work that through.
You know, am I going to then dwell on it? And return to it and hold it against that person because I'm a sinner and that's what I'll do.
If I don't seek forgive if I don't seek to forgive, even though there's no repentance, I'm condemning myself to that kind of life, really.
So that's the question I would put back this imaginary person who's asking it, you know, if, okay, they haven't repented and you're saying forgiveness is conditional, well, what are you you've what are you gonna do then? In your heart.
What are you gonna do with this? Like hold it or are you gonna try to extend it and know the freedom life of a gospel? And I think that's applying the Yeah.
I get, you know, Jesus says about adultery that there can be a division, even in a marriage, can't there? Because that that may that may never happen.
So there there are times where you you you some something's been broken in a relationship, and it's going to even break what god has brought together, isn't it? That's the world we're in, as you're trying to say, isn't it? We're in this sinful broken world.
And there are times where yeah, there is a division that's going to happen and can't be healed until the new creation.
Yeah.
You know, cause an adulterer may be broken and seeking forgiveness and genuinely repentant.
Yes.
But still, it just can't work that relationship because trust has been broken, and it's very hard to build trust.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And these these are all slightly different situations because adultery is not a crime.
No.
Yeah, so you can't.
So you can't see justice in the law courts.
No.
Someone's committed adultery.
Yeah.
And so what does justice look like in that situation? Well, again, you know, this is something that we've we've gotta leave to the lord.
Yeah.
The other thing to talk about probably is worth just dealing with a bit.
There's 1 of the points that I wanted to to make was this point about, different nations you know, because we're we're we're quite an international church.
We've got people from different countries.
And I think forgiveness means different things to different nations.
So in the west, I think we have quite a almost like a law court view of forgiveness.
So there's guilt, there's punishment, there's release, there's not guilty, there's guilty.
We think in terms of sort of verdict, like that, and much more individually, but it might be that in some cultures, like some African cultures or some far eastern cultures, it it's more like honor and shame Yeah.
Yeah.
Than control social life.
And and fear and freedom.
So what I've got in mind there is perhaps in a in a community where sort of historic generational sins are just held over people, for for and they're not being sort of punished in the law court, but they're they're marginalized and fought less of, or they're a lower cast because of some historic decision or wrong, you know.
So my great grand, great grandfather, you know, did something and then his kids were held under the shadow of that and his kids and his kids and the other kids.
And in these cases, to forgive might have nothing to do with the law court, but it might have to do with releasing a people from a historic shame or a shadow that they've been under, and beginning to rethink of them as god thinks about them.
Yeah.
So, these are actually image bearers of god.
Yeah.
These have been made with dignity and work and Christ died for these people.
And so how how can I hold them under a a shameful banner for something that they haven't even really done? It's just by virtue of who they are.
So the gospel levels out all of that, I think.
Says I'm not gonna view you that way.
Yep.
And that and that happens in after wars, doesn't it? Yeah.
You know, like, you know, what what are the Chinese gonna do with the Japanese people.
Japanese with with with the with the Koreans and so forth.
And we we and, you know, before you know it, if if if we're not having this forgiveness, we've got this racism that comes in.
That's Yeah.
And, it's it's very it's very, very, very hard, isn't it? You know, I mean, you, you know, if you talk to people that are I mean, imagine you you people have been in a a Japanese torture camp or they've been in a German, you know, Auschwitz sort of, you know, concentration camp thing.
It it's hard, isn't it? You you then hate all Germans.
You hate all Japanese.
You make and and and that goes on from generation to generation.
We've we mustn't have we mustn't have that in Christ.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But, you know, that's where And I think that's partly what Jesus is talking about is this lack of revenge, this acceptance of of people from other cultures.
So and we want our church to be like that, don't we? Yes.
And that's hard working out, isn't it? That's right.
And I'm just gonna come on to that because I think the so what I've just said there is quite a conceptual idea, but these things have got to be worked out in the local church and you see that from very early on, like, acts 13 and stuff, you know, the new testament was a, the new testament, which was a very diverse place from the beginning.
And so they were having to take this idea of forgiveness and work it out across cultures within their buildings you know, and and and that's what we need to do and and and to keep helping people to understand, look, you know, these cultures that we've got together in the same church, might be very different in terms of temperament and personality and how they view the world.
And there are some that are sort of, bulsy and opinionated and wanna make their voice heard and others that it's more quiet and retiring and wouldn't want to volunteer an opinion on anything.
None of those are necessarily sinful.
No.
And actually some of them might be virtuous in their own ways, but they're just different.
You know, there's aspects of some cultures that are good and aspects of some cultures that that are less good.
But the point is in a local church, you've got to work out.
Right? Like, is this other culture sinning against me, or is it just that's how they express themselves in their culture? And therefore, do I need to forgive them or challenge them, or do I just need to put up with them or more than put up with them, learn to love them? You know, I might have something to learn from them.
You know, like well, I mean, there's there's there's there's is part of the suff forgiveness thing, isn't it? That poor, it was about love, covers a multitude of sin.
Yeah.
And and that's where we've got to learn to love, haven't we? And and enjoy the different cultures.
I I think this is where I think our culture at the moment in Britain where we can't laugh, actually, has really done massive harm I think 1 of the lovely things is that you can laugh at a culture and say you do it that way.
That's hilarious.
We we do it this way.
That's hilarious.
You know.
And because then you can enjoy the differences and sort of laugh at them, not in not in a mocking way, but in in an enjoying way.
Oh, British people do this.
Through Africans, you know, do this.
Yeah.
And it's it's funny.
Yeah.
And therefore we can then enjoy it.
But once you've got this sort of council culture of everything mustn't be laughed at and how dare you sort of you're not gonna enjoy each other's cultures.
That's right.
And and, you know, this side of heaven that you might always find another culture a bit difficult.
You know, I remember when we, I mean, he's left the church now, but I remember when Don, who's an American first came over here, he was telling me about being in these, business meetings up in London, and, with British people, and and he would put forward an idea or someone would put forward an idea and then it was discussed around the table, and it was kind of, yes, I just wonder whether, you know, if, that's a good idea, but maybe we could do it.
So this and there was all this talk and he was sort of sitting there like, do they agree with me or not? Or I'm sorry.
Was that a good idea, or wasn't it? You know, and all the way British people talk, you know, and sometimes that is just a little bit, which should be more transparent.
It's a little bit duplicitous sometimes.
And there might be sinning that PM to them.
But then for British people, sometimes, you know, when a when an American or a South African, gives their opinion on some It's like being hit with an iron bar, isn't it? And you think, woah, you know, sorry.
Well, and maybe we're just too sensitive, and we need to learn to sort of take that as they're not offending us, but they're just giving their opinion as they were asked to.
And so you've got to learn all of this.
And I think there will be times in the church where you have to sit down with people and say, you you need, you know, you might need to stop you need to stop doing that and you need to forgive that.
Largely speaking, I think it's just getting on with it, isn't it? And when Jesus says to Peter, which is before the unmerciful servant, you know, how many times do you wanna forgive? 7, Juice is no 77, and then Peter presumably faints and hits the floor He's saying, I'm calling you to a lifetime of being sinned against.
That's what he's really saying.
You're gonna be sinned against all your life, mate.
77 times.
So what are you gonna do about it? Are you gonna limit it or are you gonna commit to a life of forgiveness? Or do you wanna take everything to court? Wanna do 77 times in core, or do you wanna just yeah.
So that's that's a big thing, I think.
I remember reading a book on different cultures and how it was it was a business book, actually, and how and how, cultures sort of differ.
And 1 of the illustrations they gave was with George Bush Junior, who apparently was was was, you know, a very personable bloke.
Yeah.
When when you were in a small room with him.
But he was in a an Arab culture.
And, he came up and he softly spoken and, it's sort of gentle and comes towards your face.
And that this went down terribly with the Arab culture.
They saw him as a a lying whispering gossiping.
Yes.
Because A smooth sayers.
Yes.
Because it was smooth because it was gentle, and he was Whereas to them, you you shout if you believe something.
Yeah.
And some it's like, this is right.
You know, and then they they sort of get that.
Yeah.
And so they they got in com completely wrong.
And and, you know, so we've got a workout but we must finish now.
That's right.
Yep.
Alright.
Well, I hope that that helped.
And, yeah, I hope you enjoy listening to that.
And do catch up with the 2 sermons if you haven't heard them already because this will make less sense unless you've heard the sermon.
So do download those and listen.
And, yeah, see you next time.
.