Christianity A-Z

Hello and welcome to another Christianity a t z pod cast. We're very glad that you're listening today and my name is Tom Sweetman. I'm an assistant minister at Cornerstone Church. I'm here with Ben Reed, who is 1 of our assistant ministers and with Pete, who is our senior pastor, and we are looking at the letter h in our Alphabet A to Z series, and we're gonna be considering the topics of heaven and hell. This is only 1 of the resources that we put up.

You can go on to our website cornerstoneschurch kingston dot org and you can have a look at resources and sermons blogs and articles there. You can go on to our social media channel and see various events that we're putting on, and you can also like in subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you never miss 1 of these episodes. So we're on the letter h, heaven and hell, and we're gonna start as as we was we always do really with a with a verse from the bible just to help us by way of definition and Ben's got a verse 4 70. Yep. I'm just gonna read a few verses from Matthew chapter 25 where Jesus is talking about sheep and goats.

So first of all, the first section is gonna be from verse 31 to 34. When the son of man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, He will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people 1 from another. As a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He'll put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right come, you who are blessed by my father, take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. And then verse 41. Then he will say to those on his left depart from me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And then 46. Then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.

Lots of lots of stuff in there really, isn't there? I mean, these these are very very serious issues. And I think Whereas, everybody quite likes the concept of heaven, the concept of hell is is another issue. And, you know, I think I get that. It it's it's a it's a huge thing, isn't it?

That we we have this gospel of love of the Lord Jesus Christ coming from the Father, in the power of the spirit to rescue sinful people. And then we're also talking about this idea that there is a place called hell where people eternally are away from that good news and are under the judgment of God forever. So it's it's these are big issues. So I think when you when you come to issues like this, you've got to be very careful that we don't just sort of interpret what we like and our sort of cultural upbringings into the bible. We have to listen carefully.

And Jesus is very clearly in this passage and many other passages we could read, saying there is a separation of people. There are 2 places there is the place for the righteous that will be with the father, and there's the place for the wicked, the unrighteous that will be away from the father, and they're both eternal. Mhmm. So the word that is used in verse 46 of Matthew 25, where he says go away to eternal punishment. It's eternal punishment is the same word but the righteous to eternal life.

So you can't really get around the idea that there's just a sort of an annihilation that's, you know, God says, okay, you're not in eternal life. That's the end of you. You you don't exist. Because the word eternal punishment is eternal punishment is there. And so that's the first step.

I need to submit to Jesus. He knows better before I start judging him with my sort of ideas. And to remember, as you say, that when we're discussing these issues, that we're not just talking about statistics. We we we're talking about souls, you know, real conscious people who will live forever in 1 of these 2 places, and that is a massive thing. And I guess 1 of Satan's deceptive strategies is to try to get our eyes off that and just to think it's all just about this life or The other thing I think you see here is the dividing lines fall around Jesus, don't they?

Mhmm. Jesus is at the center of this judgment. Yeah. And, you know, what will be asked on that final day of judgment is is how did we respond to the Lord Jesus Christ? And how was scene in the way we interacted with his people.

You know? And so another just perhaps obvious but worth saying, myth to get rid of is the idea that our future depends on our own works in some way that, you know, if I'm a good enough, kind enough person, then God is this God is the source of God who would want me with him in heaven because I was such a nice person. And if I'm a sort of bad person, then I'm gonna go to hell. But the the reality is that it's how we respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ, isn't it? Did we repent of our sin?

Did we believe in him Did he die our death, take our hell, rise again for us? That that will be the issue whether we belong to him with the shape or away from him with the go. So Jesus is at the center of judgment, isn't he? Which is another thing. Yeah.

Other things we learn, Ben, from here? Just sort of follow-up picking up from what what Pete was saying and also what you were saying there. We I think when we think about this, we're disturbed by it, aren't we? The concepts of hell. And that's probably the correct response.

It is the correct response really. It's a disturbing thing to We we we're made not to be eternally away from God were made to be eternally with him. So to to conceive of an eternal future away from the father is is a really disturbing thing. And you can see why we jump to to things like an nihilism. Is that it?

Anihilism? Annihilation. Annihilation. Where we Like a dalic annihilate. Yes.

Otherwise, you're gonna be no more. That's right. Yeah. So it's a sort of extinguished suffering, I think. Yeah.

We we we want to -- Yeah. -- euthanize people in hell, don't we? Yes. Because we we we are disturbed by it. But when we do that, we almost make this we almost make Jesus redundant and what, you know, why is he separating and why do we fall on 1 side of him or the other.

You you kind of make that whole process meaningless in a sense -- Mhmm. -- because they in 1 way, they all fall on the same size otherwise. And then who is Jesus anyway and why is he important? But, you know, we're not told loads and loads and loads about hell, but you're right. Tom that it centers around and pivots on Jesus.

And so he's he is the person we should be listening to when it comes to talking about these things. And he, as we've said, uses these words, eternal. And it's a proper it's a it's it's a proper understanding of Jesus. That we need to help us with these doctrines, isn't it? Because 1 of the reasons we do find hell uncomfortable, I think, is because we don't recognize how serious it is to sin against God.

And we don't realize how sweet and perfect and wonderful our creator and our savior is. Mhmm. I think that's right. Yeah. And the thing is when you read the bible, you see that God is just and the punishment always fits the crime.

You know? And so to sin against our wonderful creator is is the crime that is so serious and so awful that it warrants the worst of punishments. The trouble is we think Jesus is like an app, which you can either download and load up or not, and have him as part of your life. But the bible just presents him as this unimaginably wonderful perfect being and to turn away from him is the most serious of things. And and failure to understand Jesus doesn't just mean we can't understand hell.

It means we can't understand heaven. Because 1 of the 1 of the 1 of the misconceptions that people have about heaven And and actually you see this in other religions like Islam as well, is that heaven is really the good gifts that God can give, but not God himself. But God just basically gives you some of the pleasures you denied yourself in this life or he reunites you with your childhood dog or something. And then he leaves you to get on with it -- Yeah. -- whereas what makes Christian heaven, heaven, is that Jesus is there.

And you see in the Psalms, you know, at your in your presence is fullness of joy, your right hand the pleasures forevermore. You know, it's being in the presence of God, which which makes heaven heaven. And and so and a proper understanding of Jesus helps us with both of these, isn't it? I think Yeah. Yeah.

I think you're right. I think it's understanding who I think we have a very weak view of the of the holiness of of God. Mhmm. We have a weak view of the utter sinfulness of sin and the destructiveness of sin, and we have a weak view of what the cross was about. And why would Jesus go to a cross?

If if people didn't really need saving from something horrific. You know, why would he cry out? My god. My god. I'm abandoned.

If if if there wasn't this horrific thing he was saving us from. So these are very important doctrines, but very somber and serious. And I think you know, the holy spirit through his word has given us words like torment and, you know, and it's interesting, isn't it? That the the words, the descriptive words about hell are mostly from the lips of the Savior, the wonderful loving compassionate lord Jesus. You know, he's the 1 that uses words like weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He's the 1 that talks about eternal fire. Now I guess that the Holy Spirit put those words in his mouth because not because there's necessarily you know, human bodies burning in a fire, but but they're so horrible. The thought of that that the warning is, hey, you know, this is serious, really horrific stuff that people you know, you'd you'd be wise to listen and be warned. Just pivoting from that, not understanding Jesus and and therefore the severity of hell. This I think not understanding Jesus and what you'll say Tom about the pleasures of heaven will be the fact that we're with God in his presence.

If you don't understand who Jesus is, then of course heaven's boring, isn't it? Mhmm. A lot of people think heaven sounds boring like a very dull place to be because all they can imagine is the average things they've got in this life going on and on and on and on. With no kind of progression, just sort of reaching the end of everything. And But if you know Jesus, you know he is God himself who is infinite, who has no end, and therefore you can never reach the end of him.

And so that's when you you can start to get excited by by heaven. I think that's so important, mate. Because Because without Jesus, it it just you know, when people I remember watching a a debate that Christopher Hitchens, the atheist who's died now was in, and he he he he was going against Christianity because of that. The idea of living forever is so boring. Yes.

Why would God subject anyone to that? Kind of held away. Yeah. Exactly. And of course but if it's just a slightly improved version of this life, then it is.

Because we're not made to find our max in created things. And so if it's just created things, then they will be exhausted. But if the creator is there and his people are there, and we've got stories of grace to hear forever, then there there will be and can be nothing boring nothing boring about that. I think if we you know, the definitions in the Bible of heaven, we probably need to spell it out. We've just been really talking about the new creation, haven't we?

So I think the word heaven is used in sort of different ways. And I guess we're here really talking about the whole new creation when the body is reconciled to the soul and and and not not just the place of heaven where we go when we die or where God is seated on the right hand where Christ is seated on the right hand of the father. But this this whole new creation. And I think the the problem that modern people have with heaven, we have this very buddhist idea of sort of vaguely going into Nirvana, that our souls are sort of in this soul land, which is much more like ghosts. Yeah.

What Lewis does with the whole concept of heaven or the new creation, is is to show that that place is is this place, it is the shadowy land. And that place is the 3 d, you know, IMAX -- Yeah. -- living because That is where we are back to where we should be in the presence of God, walking with him, talking with him, ruling the universe. And so if you've got this vague idea that the body, you know, separates at death from the soul, which it clearly does, and we're just like ghostly beings in a ghostly -- Yeah. -- you know, like the Harry Potter ghosts that are half carrying their hit.

Carrying their heads, and they're sort of half alive in 1 sense. That's the opposite. And so when you come into the new testament, focuses and, you know, the book of Revelation focuses on what we are going to be like in heaven. We're described with these like a the bride of Christ, and we're described as people from every nation, the sort of banquet there is of foods from every nation, and there's a fresh river of life and there's fresh fruit every month alongside the rivers that are being produced and there's creativity and you are becoming what you were created to be. So you'll be more than you ever been before.

You really will find yourself as you are in the presence of the living God. That's the new creation. That's wonderful. And Lewis is just so good on that, isn't it? The Shadow land stuff is fantastic.

It's because even the best oak tree that you would see in this world is only a shadow of what an oak tree, you know, the the great oak tree that will be seen. And And I mean, in the in his book the Great Divorce, he you know, he's he's got such powerful imagery to try to describe some of these things. I think when when he goes to hell, the character. It's like a it's a huge sprawling, ever growing city. And it's got all these residents in it.

But as soon as they move into a house, they fall out with their neighbors -- Mhmm. -- and then they have to move house again. And then they move into a new house to find that they despise their neighbors in that house -- Yeah. -- and then move to another house, and the city is just getting bigger and bigger with angrier and angrier people. And it's just you can imagine a gray in the city.

It's just sprawling out with these angry people. And It always remind me of Melbourne. Right. But when I've said that, Australia's get really annoyed. Well, it's because it's a massive sprawling city -- Yeah.

-- hours, you know, big roads in it. Job us a comment if you're listening from a Although with sunshine in milk. And so so there's that. So okay. So that's that's good isn't it?

So we've talked we've talked about some of the, you know, the realities of heaven and hell trying to describe some of those and the significance and centrality of Jesus to to both of those. Let's talk now, I think about how this doctrine makes a difference to our lives. I'm sure you may have heard of saying he's so heavenly minded. He's no earthly good, you know. Go on.

Did you wanna come back? Yeah. No. I got sorry. I just want to come back.

Yeah. We've given some kind of description of the new creation -- Yep. -- of what we would call heaven in this beauty, and we're more than we we're gonna be more than we are now because we're back to the new creation. I think it is worth just saying that hell is really very very opposite -- Yeah. -- where there is just a continual destruction of darkness.

I mean, like you say with the with the picture of that city. But but it is a collapsing in on itself. It's where there is nothing bigger than me. Where I'm not going to sit under the rule of of God, anyone greater or and so there is this sort of the apple picked off off the tree. That is just continually decaying and that's the language Jesus uses.

I remember a sermon once when you I think you talked about a log in the fire. Do you remember that illustration down there? And it's sort of you you can still see its -- Yes. -- form. Yeah.

But it's turned to ash and it's crumbling in on itself and you touch it and it all returns to dust. Yeah. And that dust never goes away. So, you know, the we think the log is burnt up, but it's not. Just turning into something else and we're turning in on ourselves.

And that's what you you see, don't you? Both heaven and hell starting in this world in many ways. The righteous are beginning to bloom. They're they're looking to Even though their bodies are physically collapsing, they're looking forward to the new body in the new creation. Whereas the world, as it as it tries to find itself and look within and turn away from God, it's becoming dehuman.

People are having sex changes. People are broken and suicide and depression and all of that is sort of turning in on it on on themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing perhaps worth saying is that that, you know, people people in hell you know, are are are angry with Christ.

Yes. And so I think a wrong understanding of it would be that hell is full of people who who now love Jesus and are desperate to be with Jesus and want to come back. Actually, I think the mashing of teeth thing is is not only sort of anger at missed opportunity, but but ongoing anger at Christ and his presence and his holiness and a sort of growing hatred, really, of all that he is. So that's worth that's worth having in mind. Yeah.

In in revelation, they're cursing God. They're carrying on continually cursing Christ. And so there is no repentance. So, you know, that they've they've become what they've given themselves over to. Or or Yeah.

And I think the other thing, sorry, just about hell, I know you wanted to move on, but we sort of have this idea that, you know, people are banging on the door of of God and saying, let me out of hell, let me into heaven. No. They're not. We we we don't do that. We need to be rescued.

And people are are are turning from the rescuers. So it's back to Christ, isn't it? You're saying If you say no to Christ, you say no to life to joy, to love, to peace, to eternity. If you're saying no to Christ, you're then saying yes to no peace, no love, no joy, no light. You know, yeah.

So it's all around Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot what you needed. No.

No. It's fine. No. It's important to, you know, to get get a proper understanding of these things. And as you say, you know, there there is so much actually in the bible about this, particularly in Jesus, and he uses all that language to to help us get a grasp of it.

I was just wanting to to talk about how it makes a different how it makes a difference practically. So So maybe I'll say a few things and you can choose which 1 you'd like to like to go for. So how how does it make a difference to our evangelism? This this doctrine. How does it make a difference to our to the way we approach suffering?

You know, in in ministry life, in church life, how how does this how does it help us to overcome difficulties in ministry and How does it help us to persevere? Do do you find yourselves in your own devotional lives if we can use that language? Think thinking much about heaven and hell? I mean, is it something that features largely in your in your minds day to day? Anything on just practical out workings, really, you can pick 1 of those or 2 of those or something else.

Yeah. I mean from perhaps a discipleship point of view or even evangelistic point of view, satan is always in the business of making hell look like the place to be and heaven, the place not to be. And so people generally don't not want happiness and love and peace. People want those sort of things. Trouble is that Satan is lied to us and told us we can find them in the fruit and apart from God.

In fact, in direct competition with God, who tells us not to do things. So that's that's a perception of Christianity, isn't it? But it's a bunch of rules. And and then Satan comes up to you and says, oh, why did God give you that silly rule? You know, if you take it really, you'll have a much better life.

So part of our work in discipling people is to help them to understand where real joy and peace and happiness and satisfaction lies. So it's not in the things that you might currently think in this world. So, you know, you could have told me 17 year old, Ben, with a girlfriend who just wants to experience the joys of sexual pleasure. Then actually that's not where you'll find happiness and all of those sorts of things. But actually you'll find them in God.

And in in how he's designed things to be. So Pastorally, it's it's it's kind of tapping into what people want and then recalibrating them and saying, these things that God's put in you that you want. You find them in him -- Mhmm. -- and Satan is lying to you and telling you you can find them apart from him, which is which is untrue. So it definitely shapes our to to the things of this world, doesn't it?

And it challenges our materialism, I suppose, doesn't it? Because we're so prosperous and so comfortable that sometimes we can't imagine how heaven could be better than here, you know. We've also got everything. Yes. And that's why we sometimes don't want Jesus to come back.

Don't come back today, Lord, because I got a football match at 3 o'clock that I really wanna go to. Yeah. And so it weans this off our addiction to stuff, isn't it in this world? Yeah. Other ways?

Well, I think it should help us and it, you know, it does to a degree, but you always want to grow in these areas, when we look at our enemies or people that treat us badly, and they die, You know, I I I do try to make myself think where is that person. Now I don't know, and I'm not God, and thankfully I'm not. You know, I don't know what happened in the last seconds of people. And we know that Jesus is the good shepherd, and he can come right up that last second and and take people to heaven. But I I you do sort of think gosh, you know, where where are they?

I'm always moved when you look at an old photograph. Mhmm. And you think, you know, like a hundred year old photograph and you think every 1 of these people is in eternity. Every I'm looking at these people. They had loves and hates and They didn't like certain foods and loved, you know, they love cricket or whatever it is, and you look at them and think they're all gone.

And I think that drives you rightly to say, well, hold it. Our responsibility is because I don't know who's gonna be in heaven and hell is to preach the gospel and offer people Christ. And then also, you know, I deserve hell. So it's not it's not I'm better because I'm going to heaven. I'm only going to the new creation because of Christ only because he opened my eyes.

He showed me Christ and by spirit, caused my heart to respond to him. So It's only of grace, so at the best moments you're looking at your enemies even and thinking Okay, you know, I've done more against God than they've done against me, and they need Christ. And so it it can help. When you're at your best moments thinking these things through clearly, it helps in in those areas. Yeah.

And I think with our evangelism, I can't remember if it was you told this story again, but about the last Charlie Peace, so I think it was the last man to be hanged in Britain. And I, you know, I don't know how sort of true the story is, but certainly the the the sort of story I've heard is that as he was being walked to the gallows or whatever it was. There was a minister reading reading a portion of a prayer book or and it was like the consolations of heaven or or or something. And he was reading about heaven and hell, but in the most bland dull in different sort of way and Charlie Pees said to have sort of listened into that and said to him, you know, if I believed what you and the church say that they believe you know, I would I would crawl across England on hands and knees. Need be if it was covered in glass.

To save 1 person from an eternity like that. And that's just a sort of challenging thing, isn't it? That that if we really believe this, then it then it must lead to evangelistic. It must again. I think it is a true story by the way because I actually saw a letter from Charles.

Did you? Yeah. There was an exhibition that Yeah. I just wasn't sure of it. And myself went to some years ago on death.

It was called death. And and death and murder or something. And it had all of these murderers last sort of wills and statements and Charlie Peace was in that. Yeah. Anyway, yes.

Yeah. Absolutely right. And I guess if I guess the sort of thing I find challenge about it, you know, living on a street that God has put me on next to neighbors that God has given me. You know, if there isn't some, I'm not saying you can drop this stuff over the garden fence every day. But and there's relationship and process, isn't there?

But I suppose if there isn't really any effort at all to try to move them towards Christ. You know, the reality is, you know, either I don't believe this enough or I don't love them enough. Yeah. It's 1 of those 2 things, isn't it, I suppose. And you know, if we love people and believe this then, you know, it should be our hearts even if we can't say it every day.

We should be praying and trying to work towards work towards it, shouldn't we? So evangelistic suffering, difficulties in life, how does this help Yeah. It gives it gives kind of temporarily. Temporarily. What's the word?

It's a bit temporary. It's fine. It's a temporary temperate. They're temporary because in heaven, we know all of our tears will be wiped away by God himself and it will be a place of eternal joy and satisfaction as we've spoken about. And so we can kind of we can live with hope, I think, is the point.

Particularly, if you have a terminal illness and you're really suffering through that and you're a Christian, you can say, I know this isn't gonna be the end. And I'm going to enjoy life again soon. With Jesus. That's that's 1 thing, I suppose. It's wonderful isn't it?

And, you know, I know of the sort of the hospital visits that we've done together Peter and and when we've or when I mean, you've probably had lots of experience of this when you sat with people who are dying, you know, in hospital, but they know the lord. And you've been able to read a passage with them. Just confident that the rest is yet to come. Isn't it? I mean, it's just I mean, the Psalm 23 of getting those situations is just phenomenal.

The Lord is my shepherd. Mhmm. I shall not want he lead me through the, you know, valley of the shadow of death. Mhmm. That's our Lord into this new place where you will eat and a drink.

And what can atheists offer in that moment? The alternatives You're asking about I mean, culturally, if if there is no judgment, Sorry, just going on the sort of judgment a bit. If there is no judgment, then then you then then your life doesn't really have any meaning. So so if if I if I it doesn't really matter whether I take an old lady across the road and help her not to get run over or I boot her into the road to get run over. If there is no judgment, I think that's If you can ever put it in these terms, that's the good news about hell because it's actually saying what you do matters.

And predominantly what you do with Jesus matters. But it what you do matters and there will be judgments. So so it does matter whether I boot a woman into the road or I help her across the road. And it then suddenly gives significance. Now, because we're in a culture now that wants to get rid of all kind of judgment and punishment and we just don't know what we're doing.

And therefore, really, you can't say something's right and wrong, really. It's harder and harder. I mean, the right and wrongs in our culture are becoming more and more limited just just to a very few little things that an elite group want to want to hold on to. But does that make sense? Mhmm.

It does. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

And that that that's the sort of craving that we've all got for justice, haven't we? And, you know, we want rights to be put wrong and wrongs to be undone. And it guarantees a future of fairness and rightness, doesn't it? And and and when you see these atrocities going on, and you can't get justice in this world, then we know God. God they will people will face God, won't they?

You know, they don't just get away, you know, you know, people like Hitler that, you know, when they've sort of burnt themselves or whatever, you know, it's really annoying because we would like to have given them some kind of justice and and and hang them or something. But actually, you know, they will stand before God. These people, these you know, rapists and murderers and criminals and witchcraft and all of this stuff, this evil that goes on. We're told. In the book of Revelation.

They will be standing before God and judged. But we also know that whatever you've done, Christ can take that judgment, and that's what the cross is about. And I suppose for God's people who who are at the sharp end of that suffering. As you say, Ben, this this this is a hope this is a message of hope for them, isn't it? And think of that bit where Paul, you know, who knew 1 or 2 things about suffering, didn't he?

You know, he he he gets like the scales out for him and he says, you know, the afflictions of this world light and momentary, you know, the glory to come weighty and eternal, you know. So he he said, you know, it's it's a way of pastoring people in difficulty, isn't it? That as hard as this is compared to the weight of glory that is coming your way. Yeah. This is light and hope light and momentary only only because of the doctrine of heaven and the new creation.

Yeah. Well, we're up we're up half an hour. Any just closing thoughts? I was just thinking just then that when we do think about hell and we find it distressing, then it's good to know that God himself finds it distressing too in a sense and that's why he sends Jesus. There would be no rescuer had God not wanted to rescue.

And so he is a rescuer. So to think of God finding joy in this sort of stuff, is is the wrong way to think about him. He wants us to be with him and he's prepared to I mean, the incarnation is a different topic. Maybe we'll come to that on the letter I or something. But it's an incredible thing that God himself would become a man to pay for our sins, to rescue us from from hell for heaven.

So just just to to know God's sort of perspective on all of this that he he wants to rescue us from it. He's a rescuer. Yeah. There's a quote I'm using this Sunday morning for a sermon where where the author talks about that that Yahweh or the Lord has no fiendish delight in his judgment, which I think is a great, you know, fiendish desires if he's stepping back and ringing his hands and gladness as people perish, you know. But then he goes on to say even the fire and brimstone is wet with the tears of God.

And that's exactly what you're saying. You know, he there's a there's a sense in which he delights in all that he does. Mhmm. But, you know, if you you know, rather that they turn and live -- Yeah. And and come to Christ while they can.

Brothers, thank you very much. And just to remind you, you can subscribe to this YouTube channel will be talking about I next week, the letter I and Cornerstone Church Kingston for all kinds of other resources to help you in your face.