Raising Boys

So welcome again to our podcast in bringing up boys. We're talking about how you raise boys, particularly in the light of all the stuff that's been going on, people are asking this question about raising boys in the light of how girls are being treated really and particularly how they've been treated a sort of sexual objects by boys in schools and so forth. A really, really good article in in the times back in March 2021 called toxic boys, what parents need to know about bringing up boys. And there's some some really good thoughts here, which are largely based on Christian traditions, but a sort of removed God, haven't they removed the Christian things. I'm Pete Woodcock.

I'm the pastor of Cornerstone Church. I'm joined again by Dean and Chris Dryden because they wouldn't call themselves experts at bringing up children, but they have brought up 5 children. And so in many ways, experts at making them, maybe. Yeah. Oh, 1 good thing.

At learning lessons from Definitely learning lessons. Yeah. And and -- Sorry. -- and that's all we're saying here. We're not we're not suggesting that we're experts, but we are saying that here's some stuff that we've noticed and we're trying to bring boys up.

Today, we're dealing with pornography. And so in this article, he has this little section that says By the age of 11, you sure had a conversation about online pornography. Is that right, Dean? I think so. I think definitely like it's so it's so hard.

It's a yes and a no. Right? So you I think the point is you have to know your kid. Some would say this is way too late. You know, some would say this is way too early, you know.

So it's it really is it really is tricky. If your if your kid has a phone with the internet with internet access, you have to you you have to have some kind of conversation about you know what they watch and you know what they might see, but if they're in a if they're in a group of friends, if they're if they're at a school or at a park with a mate who's got a mobile phone, they could see it, you know, they could they could see it through that way. So, you know, it's so difficult so you can't even say, if your kid you know, if your kid hasn't got a phone, you can you can wait. You know, it's it's it doesn't work like that. So I think you you really have to know your your child you again, and going back to the last section that we were talking about, talk to your kids, talk to your boys.

You know, if you know what's going on in their lives, then hopefully, you'll get signals and and signs and you'll know when when it when's the right time. I think I think you're right. I think that's the thing is it's an ongoing conversation that develops over time. And it is about talking about bodies, and what is right and wrong, what modesty is, how to treat 1 another. It's again going back to how do we treat each other as human beings, How do I do I treat girls differently?

And it's this constant conversation that that evolves and it grows into more and more. So you might not have had a specific conversation about online pornography, but you would have had a conversation about love, about marriage, maybe, about even about kissing, you know, just the start of those little things that then leads to a specific conversation about online pornography, and I think definitely 11 years old, most of the kids in the class will have a phone, your child will most likely have a phone. You know, you need to know what's going on and and again, as a parent, you want to be the 1 who is control not not controlling as in a, you know, I can't let my child do anything without me knowing. But you want to be the 1 introducing these things to your child. If you can, so they're not You want to be the teacher, not You want to be the teacher, not someone else teaching your child and them coming to you saying, What the heck is this about?

Yeah. You know, be on your guard as a parent. I think Yeah. I I I totally agree with that and but I think there's there's there's an idealistic thing going on there as well. In an ideal world, that would be the best thing.

I think 9, you know, I I think a lot of us as parents. I I I think there is something about reacting to something I think there's something so so sometimes stuff happens and it's a it's a it's kind of a blessing that that it does and then you can react deal with it. Yeah. It's it I think the danger is if you have a child who has been exposed to pornography, for a a length of time for a number of months or years, and you've never spoke to them about it. I think that is that is -- Yeah.

-- that is damaging. But if you know, if you have a child who stumbled across it and it's his first time and you are able to speak into that, it it is I think that can it's not the end of the world, you know. I think sometimes that's that's a gift in a in a in a weird way, because it gives you a context to speak. Yeah. But it leads off of having conversations with your child and then they know they can come to you and talk to you about this, not just, oh, no.

I better hide this. I don't think my parents will I don't think it's the way to go. I don't think it's the way to sort of do parenting, but I think some you know, unfortunately, a lot of the times it is what happens and But they find out you. Yeah. They find out and you react.

But you're saying, Chris, that if we're not just waiting for the chat. Yeah. There might be a time when there's a big -- Yeah. -- the chat. But you're saying in the context a gain of like we were saying last time in conversation about all kinds of things, marriage, making love, you know, you might be talking about even the intimacy of saying you don't crash in on mommy and daddy, even though they might say, oh, exactly.

Is that the sort of thing mommy and daddy do that then but but there's no, there's interestingly, there's a closed door there, there's there's something beautiful about this. Yeah. Exactly. It's it's the modern day, you know, deuteronomy say, as you go along the road, you talk about these things as It's the disconversations that come up as you see things. You know, your kids are gonna see things Advertisements are so close to pornography quite often that you -- Pop music as well.

-- exactly. Yeah. Most most films these days will have a a love scene or some kind of you know, love story. And and, you know, I think that's where you have the opportunity to talk to them. But I think positive experiences is the best your family culture, you know.

Even it even just mom and dad in the kitchen, you know, and there's a there's a flirt. There's there's a bit of fun happening. You know, there's a a, you know Yeah. That's right. And and and your kid will react, you you know, like the boy and and you can play that up and say, look, this is this but this is beautiful.

This is, like, in all seriousness, this is this is how supposed to be -- Okay. -- you know. However It's not beautiful. No. No.

And it seems that it it's largely violent it seems and we've and and and he says in this little article which I think he's absolutely right that these these actors. Yeah. And the women are acting. And so they're not enjoying this. It's it's often slave women that have to be doing this, you know, for hours upon hours, 1 scene after the other scene being mishandled by men and they're pretending to love it.

So it's a good idea to really show this is a horrible horror film. Yeah. Women women acting as if they're enjoying it. Yeah. And I think you know, he he talks about the boys that he's that he's worked with it becomes a something they expect that if they see this, this is how sex works on this film, whatever.

This is this is what they come to expect -- Yep. -- in their relationships and it's total it totally wrecks relationships because that's not how things work, you know. It's not how things are supposed to work. You will never have a healthy relationship if you go into it expecting a woman to do stuff that you see in a in a in a in a fictional, yeah, made up world, you know, which is actually not just you're made up world. It's a fictional made up horror show, really, you know, because like you say, it's it's it's all it's misogynistic, it's it's that it's only pleasing the man.

It's all about, you know, what the man's gratification and and it's just it's just not it's just not It's not love. Well it's not making love, is it? And and and and I don't think pornography uses that term. It's not a man and a woman in love making love and becoming sort of united in caring and giving to each other. It's wham bam.

Thank you, ma'am -- Yeah. -- stuff, isn't it? It's come here I'll do this and and you know even those terms, I mean, I won't use the words but if you think about the terms that are used that replace making love. Yeah. Yeah.

It just shows you in 1 sense that is not sex. It's more like rape. Yeah. And rape isn't sacred. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's an awful thing -- Yeah. -- if we're teaching our young men that sex is is basically like like rape. Yeah. And we mustn't do that.

So it we have to speak about this. This is an ugly really satanic version of of sex. Yeah. Isn't it? Yes.

That's totally distorted and Not gentle, not kind, not giving. Yeah. Yep. Now I think I I I mean, 1 of the things I love about this this sort of section is that he he says, look, that you will need to have multiple conversations over many years about this and the penny will drop in the end, you know. Yep.

And that's that's a that's a that's a that's a brilliant way of putting it. You know, I think that is something that that you're gonna Again, and and you can do this as you go along the road. So so, again, every film or every, you know, not every film is is 1 of those things Do I have to speak every single time? You know? No.

Probably not. It's going back to the saying stop it and and and actually naming emotions, you know? Well, sometimes we need to stand up and turn a film off. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, and sometimes we need to if we've paid to go to see a film, you know, we need to say okay -- Yeah. -- I'm I'm go I'm walking out. Yeah. Which is hard for some of us because I've paid 10 quick goods seriously.

Do your homework. Yeah. But sometimes, you know, you can spin things on. Yeah. Because the sex scene never really adds to the film.

No. It's just it's like it's like this is why I And again, it's unreal. It's in a most most sexy Even the nice ones are ever. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, they they finish, get up, put their clothes on and go. He's like, don't you have a shower. You know, so it's it's nonsense.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But, you know No. And I think, you know, definitely as your kids are older and you're watching films with them, it is again, it's modeling that behavior of most of the time, those scenes are And and it's not necessary classed as pornography, those scenes.

So pornography is much, much worse than that. Yeah. But if we as add can't really even stomach those those scenes that are seen as regular, you know, or normal. How much worse would pornography be to actually sit there and watch 1? But I think what get back to the point of as you're watching these shows with older teenagers, you know, that have sex scenes in them, it is showing them.

Actually, it is okay to just whiz on through and be like, oh yeah blah blah blah. You know? And and sort of talk to the film that way and help them -- Yes. -- you know, have the courage to do that maybe when they're with friends and these But again, that's not even pornography. Yeah.

Yeah. That's just what the world deems as normal. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, absolutely.

And and and sometimes, you know, in a film the what what we would call normal sex is that there's suddenly so taken up, aren't they? Yes. It's like, why? And all the clothes are being ripped off and you think it doesn't you know, 1, I think if I ripped my wife's clothes, she'd be so angry. And I'm gonna go buy small clothes.

Doesn't this happen normally for you? That that nothing would happen sexually, which should be so annoyed that the button's ripped off, and she has to sew it back on. But it's it it it what that does is that is that we're so taken up with this force of sex -- Yeah. -- that there again, there's no real kindness in it. It's just 2 people, you know, exploding with this force that they can't help themselves and that's just wrong.

And that that goes back to actually. And with pornography, it goes back to you that I've got this urge. I've got this feeling. Yeah. I need to do something with it.

Right? And again, that's where that's where all of these conversations that we have with our with our boys, especially growing up, is, yes, You do have -- Yes. -- emotions. You have urges. Yep.

You are responsible for the way that you respond to those. Yes. And our job as parents is to help you to deal with those things. So you, as a boy, they might have these strong urges, especially if they're watching these things or trends are talking in this way. What is their response going to be?

Because that is what they are going to be responsible for and that's what we have to help them to say, yeah, you're gonna have this urge and it's gonna be hard. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to deal with it. It's gonna be hard not to want to just push on through and, you know, gratify yourself. Well again in Proverbs, that's what the father does.

He comes to the street where the prostitute is. And he shows all of the urges. She's gonna have lovely, you know, Egyptian linen. It's in other words, it's gonna be nice. The smell is delicious.

I mean, it's very interesting in that passage because he she even says, I've sacrificed. I've I've, you know, you know, I've I've been religious it's okay, you know, we're alright. And she she shows all of the pleasures. But as he says, it ends in death. It will ruin it will ruin you.

Now that's just sort of sex with a prostitute, you know -- Yeah. -- in a way that you you shouldn't be, you know, should be faithful with your wife. We're still coming back to pornography which is which is treating women as objects of of desire only. Yeah. And that's so so there's something bigger we want to teach our men that these are women that, as we said last time, that we want to protect.

And we want to love and be kind to. And yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, you go he talks about the sort of the pressure of the peer group as well, and that will come you know, says that comes in a sort of 14. And again, it could it could come in earlier, you know, but definitely by then, you you you have got more competition So that's why, you know, you have to have those good open lines of communication because you're gonna be you're gonna gonna have lots of competition and and and again like, you know, who who you're who who are your kids friends?

That that that's a good question to ask. And what are what kind of influences are you are your kids getting from their from their friends? So You know, I think I think definitely keeping the lines of communication open with with your kids is is 1 of the most important things that we can do as parents. And and and helping them to know that that that girls aren't just objects. They are they are they are people.

They are create, you know, their fellow workers with you, their sisters. If that if you're a Christian young man, That is not, you know, that's not a piece of me. It's a it's a it's a sister, treat her like a sister in Christ. Yeah. And and that that can that can totally transform the way, you know, we we think about girls.

But saying that, you know, teenagers, they they they they need again, I I I just think when I was when I was a teenager, you know, I was thick as anything and and like the urges you know, the the desires, they just they they do rage and you need you need multiple different influences so you other Christian parents, youth workers, you know, people at church, all sort of input into your kids it's all, you know -- Yeah. -- it's it's definitely all all needed. And and wanting to show show our men how how to treat women and and that's Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.

And look how kind he was to women. Yeah. And even kind to, you know, women that were caught in adultery and stuff. He wasn't he wasn't having those varices. Yeah.

You know, just condemn her. He was kind and loving and straight and -- Yeah. -- you know, he spoke he spoke truth into lives. Yeah. I mean any any woman Jesus interacted with it would she ended up flourishing more.

Yeah. You know? So so for our boys, how are you gonna end up? How are you gonna have that goal? What what amazing goal?

Yeah. You know? Every woman that you interact with or, you know, have a relationship with -- Yeah. -- and I'm not talking about physical or or, you know, like boys and girls just any any girl, is your goal to help that woman to flourish? Yes.

Yeah. Whereas pornography is that woman is is is a piece of meat, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And it's all about you and and it's it's a horror.

Yep. Okay. So that conversation just just quickly though. So let's say, you know, your your boy comes home and and he's got something on his on his phone or whatever it is, you know, computer and, you know, what what are you gonna do or you you you find it on there, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's where that That's the opportunity to say I need to talk to this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And and maybe not immediately, but you just again choosing your time. Yeah. That's right. They talk about they they go on to talk about sort of this website which is you know, where where where girls have given testimonies of abuse and stuff like that. Yeah.

And, you know, that you need to be careful there. But but in in that kind of situation, I just think you just need to put your cards on the table and say, look, mate, you know, if you have been there, that's that's a helpful thing, you know. I don't think I don't think you have to have struggled with pornography yourself to to speak into that, but But just say, look, let's talk. Let's let's we need to open this box. Yep.

Yeah. It's it's not going to do any good to just sweep it under the carpet, you know? And and whatever however it go it's gonna be hard. Don't expect it to to be instantly better, you know. But sometimes you have to have those, you know, those tough conversations.

Because if you're looking at pork in place. Yeah. And porn is basically the woman is there for my pleasure or just a sort of lump of meat. Then it's going to be hard, isn't it, to look at the girls in your life and the women in your life. There's nothing there's nothing but that.

Yeah. I mean, think about think about boys. That, you know, they they they play the game, don't they? Rate rating out 10. Right?

Yeah. You know, we used to I I know I know we used to do that. When when we were when we were younger. And it's just it's a -- What is this? -- not a good thing.

Not gonna do it. Gave it up long time ago, but I married her. So, you know, But, you know, like Off the scale. But, you know, that but that's that's sort of small scale, but that that's sort of that's that's that's all part of the culture, you know, that's objectifying women. And and actually, the culture we live in has a lot to answer for, actually.

Because it it's so many it's the the messages are so so mixed -- Yeah. -- so mixed. Yeah. You know, so you know, like, I I went back to the the example of of of an old singer Britney Spears years ago. Yeah.

The the video and song that made her Famous was, you know, in the video, she was dressed up as a school girl. Yeah. You know? And and what is that teaching? And hit me 1 more time.

Well, I don't know what that I I guess it's a sexual reference. Well, yeah. I mean, it's you know, whatever it is, it's not good, is it? No. You know, so so it's What what kind of messages are are we are we sending our boys in this culture?

It's they're always mixed and it's totally inconsistent and you know that's why we need to return to a biblical world view on know, on how to view men and women and how to treat women as as men. Yeah. I think that I mean, I think the heart really You don't have to treat women as men, but how men should treat women as women. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm sitting here as a as a mom of 3 boys, And I'm really thankful that I am married and I have a husband -- Yeah.

-- who can deal with these things. Mhmm. Like, if my you know, if this situation were to come up in our house, I would definitely defer to Dean and say you need to speak to this child about this. Now I would I would also come and maybe get you involved somewhere along the line to get a woman's perspective and and get a woman's opinion on it or, you know -- Yeah. Yeah.

-- because I think Which is which is great and which is right. But you know, let's face facts. There are lots of single parents in our churches. And how do we help the single moms deal with this with their boys? How would you say?

Well, I I think you know, unfortunately, they are gonna have to bear a lot of the burden because that's the position that they're in. But that's where I think also making church family important, having good relationships with men in the church with youth leaders. Where, yes, I I would hope that if I was in that situation, I could have a conversation with my child, but I would also want a man from the church to come alongside. I would have to take it to them and say, like, this is the situation. I need someone to have a conversation with my boy.

And men of the church need to be willing to step up and to do that and to have those hard conversations. Because not all of our families you know, our 2 parent families and and we need to address that. And the men in the church needs to be willing to fill in that position and to take that on. And and also to say it's not a bad thing to to say as well to to families where there is a dad in the house. Sometimes, you know, a a youth worker or or a a bloke in the church that your lad has a good relationship with.

Sometimes that can be Oh, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. A best you know, a better way in, you know, like Verinting is is the main thing. Yeah.

Actually, you know, the equivalent of uncles and aunts and people in the church and youth leaders are really helpful. Yeah. And, you know, often a teenager will open up more about pornography. Yeah. Because it's such an it it can be quite embarrassing, you know, to to talk to Dad mum about it.

And that's brilliant, isn't it? That's brilliant. I think church is great on this because because we are modeling men and women and love and we're we're unafraid to talk about making love, you know, we were unafraid to open up books in the bible like song of songs, which which, you know, talks about the romantic you know, they're they're beautiful pictures of sex, and we're unashamed to talk about sex, actually. In in a way that's positive. So I think I do think church is actually actually a really great environment isn't it?

Even for the young ones just to see, oh, look, there's lots of moms and dads and lots of yeah. Yeah. And and that's the the the this this this whole article is brilliant, but that's the tragedy of this of the world we live in is that, you know, you know, many, many families have removed that layer of of stability from from their lives from from from society. You know, churches and and church and God, it's out of the picture for for many, many families. So, you know, I would say if to anyone who's listening to this podcast who might not be going to church or involved in a church, it's it's such a brilliant, you know, community to have around you -- Yeah.

-- to help us raise boys that are good for the world. And that's what this That's what this article is all about. Yeah. You know? And and and in church, we talk about emotions.

We talk about pornography. We we talk about the difficulties we had. And we do it in a safeguarding way because Chris, you're the safeguarding officer. And so we we put we we we know there's difficulties. That men and, you know, can can have and women can have.

And and we put safeguarding in because we do believe we're in a sinful world. Yeah. That that twists and distort sex. Yeah. And that we're drawn to that twisting and and distorting.

So that's why safeguarding is a very important thing and that's why we have it in the church. Yeah. Do I say something about? No. I mean, I think I think that is key and I do think with all of these issues, we as parents, we're going to mess up, we're going to get it wrong sometimes and we may not always have these pop Like we talk about, yes, you should have this conversation, but sometimes those go wrong.

Sometimes our kids don't want to listen to us. And as Christian parents, we need to pray about that, we need to give it to God, but that's what being part of a church, where they're having all of these people around them, all these men around them who are of the same mind, who have the same beliefs, the same values, are, and they become the influencers instead of the kids on the playground -- Yeah. -- or, you know -- Yeah. -- we want to fill their lives with with people who have these strong moral beliefs, but not just moral beliefs, but they understand where all the -- Absolutely. Yeah.

-- the goodness, God give good things. And sex is a good thing. Yeah. And, you know, why is it a good thing? We want that, you know, going into their heads from a very early age and that actually sex and pornography are 2 totally different things.

Yeah. 1 is good and 1 is evil. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.

I think that's right. I I don't think we should be calling pornography sex. I I I I well, I think put let's call it pornography, you know. It's a different It's a whole different game. Yeah.

I think we'll we'll finish there, but I I do think that is right. I I think that kids, as far as I can understand, that that we always need not our peers. The pit we all talk about peers. Kids need their peers. I I don't think so.

I think they always need the 1 the sort of age group above them -- Mhmm. -- to be inspired by them. Yeah. And that's where church is really good, isn't it? Because if they see so if If you got a, you know, a 10 year old boy and he sees the 14 year old boy going on with Christ, that's his that's who he's aspiring to.

And then the 14 sees the 18 year old, and the 18 sees the 25 year old. They're aspiring to the next level because they always wanna be older than they are -- Yeah. -- until you're a certain age and you always wanna be younger too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Okay. Any last bits of wisdom on pornography? No. Just yeah.

It's everywhere, isn't it? You're gonna have to deal with it. We'll have to deal with it. Everywhere, and I think we've I think what this is worth saying, if you are a male the internet knows who who you are. Yeah.

They know more about us than the people have known about us you know, probably we know about ourselves. They know about our habits and there are men all night -- Yep. -- working on trying to attract you and they will use anything -- Get you to click the next button. -- to click the next thing and porn and attractive women perhaps other other way in. So I know as a 63 year old man, you know, I know my day.

I know there's going to be where I'm not even thinking of sex. And and there'll be something on the internet to try to or, you know, something to try to to get my attention. And so watch that Know that, know your world. So for instance, I I haven't been on the bus for over a year now because of the whole COVID thing. But when I played chess on the bus, they know because I was playing an online chess game, you know, people are who Yeah.

Around the world. They know about me. They know my age, obviously. They know I play chess, so I must be a sad lonely bloke, who's 63 sad lonely bloke plays chess. He plays it at like 4 30 on the bus.

I would come round on the bus from Kingston into Serburton and always there was a bing. Tanya is waiting for you. You know, whoever she is and she doesn't exist, of course. The very scary thing is, and this is from a safeguarding point of view, is that they may say Tanya is waiting for you, but it could be a child Exactly. That is being forced to be on a site.

And then you're headed down, even a road that leads to nothing Yep. But -- Disaster. -- disaster. Your life by 1 click of a button -- Yeah. -- your life could be ruined.

Absolutely. And it's very, very dangerous. Yeah. And and how utterly annoying and and I don't want that. I'm just playing chess.

I mean, I've got rid of that now because I just so annoyed that someone's using an algorithm to try to attract me down the line that you you you you you might say. So Our kids are there. It's there. We're in a wicked world and we've got to teach them how to follow God in this wicked world. Yep.

And that's where they need to pray, they'll fail. We're happy so I'm going on there. But we're we're we're happy to allow them to tell us they failed. Yes. Yeah.

So we don't want kids that think they have to be so perfect. They can't say, mom, dad, I I've got this stuff. I I can't get rid of it. You know, we want people to be open enough to be able to say, okay, that's alright. Yeah.

We all fail. Let's let's deal with this. As we said earlier, you know, there's there's so much more we could say, you know. But but again, that goes it goes back to we We live we're living by a code, we're living by by the Word of God, which has a category for that. You know, we we have For forgiveness.

Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We we, you know, where do where where does the non Christian go.

You know? It's just it's just an emotion or, you know, it's just something they have to, like, try hard to do it on your own as an Yeah. You know, somebody who believes in God, we have a God who will walk beside us, who will take us, who will help us through these. And we have a community of believers. We're the Holy Spirit, who is, you know, He has the he by by the by the power of the whole spirit Jesus rose from the dead, you know?

He he he's the 1 who brings life to to dead bodies, you know? And to dead lives. Wow, you know, why wouldn't we take advantage of that? Boys to be boys and say to the to be able to say don't show me that -- Yeah. -- you don't treat women like that.

That's not what God says -- Yeah. Exactly. -- and that they can be pleased -- Yeah. -- in talking like that. Yeah.

I think that's that's the thing. Like with pornography, we need to see it for what it really is. It is a dragon that that is not a pretty drag it's a dragon. How how are you? It's a disgusting dragon -- Yep.

-- who wants to rip you apart and and if you saw it, for what it really is -- Yeah. -- you would be, you know, you would wanna run from it -- Yeah. Yeah. -- every day. Yeah.

And so see it for what it really is -- Yeah. -- and and and battle against it. And don't don't ever it's, you know, it it will it will come to you as an angel of light. It will come to you as as the most attractive thing that you can think of. Yeah.

But it's it's the exact opposite. And so Yeah. Really? We're gonna close there. Come back next time.

We'll we'll be dealing with another issue. I'm not sure what it is. On how to raise boils, but thank you very much. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed that episode of raising and as as ever if you go on to our website cornerstonechurch kingston dot org, then there's plenty more resources that you can download and if you go to our YouTube channel, our social media channels, you can subscribe and follow those as well so you can keep up to date with all the content that we're we produce it.