Christianity A-Z

Welcome to Christianity a to z. Thank you for joining us today for another episode of our podcast. We are on the letter e today, and we're gonna be thinking about the doctrine of ELECT If this is your first time listening to our podcast and you're on YouTube then you can like and subscribe or hit the bell so you get notified fired whenever we release another 1 of these. If you would like some more resources from Cornerstone Church, you can go to our website w w w dot cornerstonechurch kingston dot org and you can follow us on our social media channels too. My name is Tom Sweetman.

I'm 1 of the assistant pastors at the church. I'm here with Pete Woodcock, senior pastor, Ben Reed, another 1 of system pastors and it's great to be discussing this truth with you today. In some ways, you know, a controversial doctrine perhaps to some people, but also full of the most wonderful comforts and hope for believers. So, Pete, you you do you wanna kick us off with a voice? Well, I think we need to say we're not talking about in a sense of lecturing a government or the local government or the mayor or anything like that.

So we're talking about the the this this amazing teaching, really, the that God chose us before the foundation of the of the world. And so in Ephesians chapter 1, Paul is writing and he writes in verse 11 in him and that's Christ. So in Christ, we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be to to the praise of his glory. So there's just loads of stuff there, but what it's saying is that look you who are Christians, God chose you. And he chose you before you you were even born.

In fact, he chose you before the world was born and he chose you in Christ. So it's very important. So I think some people have a sort of a sort of a weird idea that God was sort of just going you know meeny eeny meeny meeny miny Mose sort of thing. I'll have that 1, don't want that 1 sort of thing. But it's done in love it's done out of the plan of God, it's planned, and it's in Christ.

The whole thing is in Christ, so the whole cross is worked through there. So this is the loving plan of God. Now, the great thing about this, it means that I'm saved by God alone. Because if he chose me before the foundation of the earth in Christ, because of what Christ did on the cross, then I had nothing to do with it. You know, and therefore there's a great security in that.

I think that's the big thing about it. But we'll discover that I think more and more. Yeah. Well, I mean it it that ties into what you're saying about being elected in Christ, isn't it? So there was nothing in us that warranted our election.

You know, God didn't foresee the sort of good people that we would become. And choose us on that basis. He chose us because of Christ and his merits and his perfections and he chose us to be found in him. And as you were saying there, this is not like an arbitrary, eeny, meeny, meeny, Mo, because we're told that in love, he predestined. So it is a it is a relational choosing.

God chooses us for relationship. And then he goes on to say they're predestined us for adoption. So He didn't just choose us in the beginning and without a without a sense of what would happen to us. He chose us for adoption. You know, there was a it was always relational.

It always had a purpose and a future. And all of this was in was in the loving mind and the counsel of God. Yeah. Sorry. I should have actually read verse 4 of chapter 1 as well.

I read verse 11, but you you just refer to it. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be wholly and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us for the adoption of sonship through Jesus Christ in according to his pleasure and will. And so those 2 verses obviously go together. So yeah.

Absolutely. This is this is a loving act of God. And so when we come, you know, people can be quite vicious about this doctrine and and then harden it up into quite a sort of nasty fatalism It is not that. So let's just sort of clear that roadblock. This is loving working in order to adopt us in Christ Jesus.

Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. It is it's a it can be quite it's a tricky doctrine, I think, for for a lot of Christians, particularly particularly some some maybe newer Christians because they It's interesting. From from the front, as you are under a sermon, a preacher is preaching to the whole congregation.

The preacher doesn't say, right, half of you leave because there's no point you listening to this, half of stay because the the way that the word is sown in a sense is kind of scattered for everyone and we and we at the front are saying, you know, repent, respond to this. Come come come come come to the Lord Jesus. And then you hear that oh, I was elect anyway. And and we get these wrong ideas which you've already talked about which is that it's a cold and different thing rather than a loving, gracious thing. You can understand where where that kind of Yeah.

I think people have got to Thin comes from. We've really got to understand sin, I think. I mean I have to say I think sin is such a fundamental teaching of the bible and when you really understand what sin is and who we've done, you know, what we've done to God. Then then lots of these teachings, you know, fall into place. If I so the bible describes me as dead in sin.

If I'm dead, I can't do anything. I I can't make myself choose God because I'm dead. I'm dead to God. So so you you need God to choose me -- Yeah. -- because I can't choose God and I'm so dead I wouldn't choose God.

And I think when when you hear people pray, you hear that they actually do believe in this doctrine of election, really, because you've I've I don't think I've ever heard anyone pray, oh, father God, and thank you that I'm was intelligent enough to understand what you were saying and good enough to respond to the Lord Jesus Christ, and I'm better than my brother that hasn't responded. You know, thank you that I was so it that isn't our prayer. Is it? It's Lord, thank you for saving a wretch like me a sinner. Yeah.

And also, if you're praying for someone else, which it's a wonderful thing to be able to go to God and say, father, you can save them. So would you open their eyes? As opposed to going to God and say, well, we know God. There's nothing you can do about this. We've just got to wait until they realize they're a sinful person.

Yeah. Whereas we don't pro like that. We we pray for people. We get on our knees, and we we bring them before the law. Blind eyes.

Yes. And we brought dead ears. Raise the dead. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's important to know right from the beginning, isn't it? Because, again, it's not as if before the foundation of the world. There was there was the whole of the world's population before God, and they were all morally neutral. And he chose some to be saved and some to be damned. But the way the bible actually teaches it and there is a sense of mystery in this is that that actually we had all chosen sin and destruction and independence from God and wanted to wage war upon him and his word.

And God instead of leaving us all to the destination that we had chosen in our sin, he chose to graciously bring back and make alive a people for himself who he would adopt and then bring bring into glory. But As you were saying, Ben, you know, the way in which we, you know, we're not privy to all that information. Are we? We don't know exactly who. Mhmm.

I mean, it it would save us money on our leaflets, wouldn't we? Because we would know. Number 32, number 49, number 84, and, you know, we'd only have to order as many as we've been told. But What Paul says, he suffers everything for the sake of the elect. Yeah.

So so we are to preach the gospel and suffer in preaching the gospel. For the sake of the elect, but he doesn't know who the elect are. Mhmm. So we gotta go and preach the possible. And he makes a free offer.

He makes a free offer to everyone. Doesn't and that I mean, I know we're sort of swinging on to applications a bit. But that does, I think, give us confidence in our evangelism, doesn't it? Because I can't remember exactly where it is, but there's a bit in act where Paul is wanting to move on. I think it's corinth and the the law says to him, no.

I want you to stay, why for I have many people in this city. Mhmm. In other words, Flippians, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's a yeah. So that's an encouragement for him that the Lord has his people who are not yet saved, but are waiting to respond to the gospel call. He doesn't know who they are. His task is just to make a free offer. You know, come all -- Yeah.

-- who are weary, and those whom God has chosen will be saved. So that's an encouragement to it. If it was down to us to have to persuade everybody -- to come into the kingdom, and the final responsibility rested on us and them, you know, I I don't see how we could keep going. It's it's it's actually following the same pattern as Jesus as well because when he came to this earth, he didn't just go to the towns and villages that would accept him. He went to many places that sort of walked him out to the top of a cliff to push him off it.

And also here in in in Mark Kate when he's feeding the 4000, there's a large crowd that sort of gather and he says, I have compassion for these people. They've been with me for 3 days and I have nothing to eat and he wants to feed them all. He he doesn't say, well, you know, the ones here that are elect, I will pay sort of a special attention to, but there's there is still the the food and the word as he's teaching because he's not just feeding them. Is to go out to the whole crowd. You know, repent, believe the good news is given to everyone.

It's not It's so it's so right, isn't it? And most of our problems with this doctrine come because we we can't be biblical in our understanding of how those things go together. And, you know, we do acknowledge a bit of a mystery there, don't we? And that God is sovereign over salvation, but our responsibility is real. And yet, Those things aren't a contradiction.

They're truths that we have to hold intention, aren't they? And as you say, we see it we see it with Jesus. You know? He said, you know, I lay my life down for my sheep. He knows who his sheep are, and he lays his life down for his sheep.

And yet he says, you know, come come and be a sheep. Yeah. You know, doesn't make up come to all Come to being a shepherd. Yeah. Yeah.

And and Paul here, I mean, again, there is so much -- Yeah. -- actually about election. Funny enough in the bible, isn't it? A lot. And so here's Paul, he's evangelizing, he's preaching to the gentiles, and it says in acts chapter 13 verse 48.

When the gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the lord and all who were appointed to eternal life believed. Brilliant. So it's just it's just really exciting -- Yeah. -- because we know that people will be converted because God loves to elect people. Yeah.

You know, And and I think that's, you know, he's not a meanie God, is he? He wants millions in in the kingdom of God and so we can be confident when we do have angelism. If it was as as you say, if it was down to just oh, although we are to be persuasive, Paul is persuasive. But if it's just down to me, to persuade someone to become a Christian. And gosh, that the the the the anxiety and burden upon me or you or anybody else is just too much to bear.

Yeah. So it really affects our our evangelism and the way we approach that, and we can do it with confidence. And we we talked a bit at the beginning about how this doctrine is often taught to to comfort believers. Can 1 of you say a bit more about in what way does it comfort believers, this Well, if you were right. So if if God chose me because I was good looking, what happens when I'm not good looking?

So if God chose me because I did good works, what happens when I fail in those good works or do some bad works? If God chose me because I'm really believe. I really you know, I've got massive faith. What happens when my faith wanes? Or there's times where I have no faith.

If God chose me because I was religious, what happens if I'm not very religious? I fail in my religious duties. If it's down to me, if God chose me because of anything to do with me, what happens when I I fail in those things? Then there is no security. There's no there's no real love because it's down to me and what I what I do and what I don't do.

But if God chose me before the foundation of the earth when I couldn't do anything, if God chose me you know, when I'm then eventually a sinner when I am born into this world and I'm a sinner and I'm at my worst as it were, if he chose me when I'm when I have nothing absolutely nothing to offer, I'm secure. And so that's the great comfort of it, isn't it? I'm absolutely secure. Even if I get old and frail and stupid and forget things and faith wanes and I slip up or I sin in some grand way. It it's not excusing that life.

I am to live out a life of being chosen by as God's child. But the security is massive, isn't it? So this is a doctrine that is is designed to help us very practically, both in terms of reaching out with the good news, but also to to comfort us. Because if God has chosen us in the beginning, we're gonna make it to the end. But When, you know, perhaps we've all heard this, maybe even done it ourselves.

You know, when when this teaching often comes, people Our tendency can be to turn that which is meant for our encouragement and forge it into a weapon with which to beat God. You know, it's something that we use to attack him. Now let let's just talk then for a moment about what what us I mean, we may have covered it in our conversations already. But what are some of the objections that people have with this and and how would we how would we sort of answer them? More than we have.

What what might people someone say, hold on. Yeah. Are you saying that? Yeah. I mean, you'll you might hear that's unfair.

Why and why has some person been chosen and not someone else? Is God being unfair there, is 1 thing. Which which goes back to the We're talking about sin at the beginning and we have this sort of idea that we're all on a level playing field We all could get into heaven, but God has picked his team and left some people on the bench. As opposed to the understanding that none of us deserve to be anywhere near the playing field to extend that metaphor. But God has lovingly gone out and got us and brought us home.

Sorry. I've just not I've answered the question. No. That's good. That was that was the plan.

Yeah. Yeah. No. That's 1 1 of the suggestions. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sign off. Yeah.

It's great that we ask our own question and then answer. Yeah. It's fine. We're with great authority. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Confidence. Yeah. No.

That is right. And and again, we do acknowledge something for mystery there because, you know, we we we probably have all got members of our family who don't know the lord. And, you know, when we think about it and ask, well, why you know, why why do I why has Jesus chosen to show me the riches of the gospel, not him or not her. The answer is we don't really know because from from 1 perspective, they can often seem nicer, more moral people than us. And so if you were just looking at it from a flat perspective, you would think, well, you'd rather have him.

And and we don't know is the answer, but it we do know that it's all of free grace. And as you say, God wants people to be saved. I mean, this is the amazing thing, isn't it? Because although God delights in all that he does, including judgment and salvation. The way his heart is often revealed in the bible as 1 who is just longing for people to be saved, as if that would be the best thing.

Yeah. If everybody was saved, if you can put it in those terms. And we have verses in the old testament where God says, you know, do I desire the death of the wicked person. No. But rather that they turn and live.

You know, that that is what he wants, not people to die in their wickedness and their sin. But to make the most of the opportunities that God has given them, and to turn and to live, that that's what he wants, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Other objections people might have, you think Well, remember that this is a sort of I think 1 of the ones is that people it's it's there's no choice.

It's not my choice. God just busts in, you see? Does he just kick the door in and come into my life? I love spurgeon on that. Spurgene gives a great thing.

He says, when you if you see a casket, like with that's had treasure in it and the lock has been bashed off and and and the top has been smashed to pieces. You know you know 1 thing. There's a robber. A violent robber is just smashed it in. But when you see that the that the lock has been unlocked and the the that the lid has been safely, you know, lifted to reveal the treasure.

You know that there's the master there with a key. And so, you know, it isn't God just bashing in against who we are against our reason, or or even against our ignorance actually in 1 sense. It it's not ever put like that. It's the master key. It's the 1 who opens our heart.

So Lydia in in acts chapter 16, it it talks about God opening her heart. And he does that not by ignoring our even our desires. He woos us. He's the master with the key. And he woos us.

And -- It's relational again. -- it's relational and it enlightens us so that we see who Christ is, we see we need a savior, we see that we are sinful, and it's what we desire. We want to be saved by Christ. That's the workings of election and the workings of the spirit on a heart, isn't it? It's not just bashing in kicking the door in and saying you'll be mine.

The language we use is freed from slavery. You know, the chains, you know Exactly. Fell off is what Exactly. My eyes were opened, the scales fall away. That's the language we talk about not saving us.

So in a sense, he well, there's the stories in there where Jesus tells about the stronger man tying the the strong man up. So so there's a rescue going on but to to bring us back to our rightful mind and our rightful place. Yeah. I think as well about the the the youngest son. In the in the parable of the what's it called?

My mind's gone black. The particle son. Yeah. The younger son, he comes to his he comes to his senses is is how when he realizes his sin and and he was better off with the father. Yeah.

So instead of us being taken to sort of a bad place against our will. Yes. God is He's wooing and suffering. It's like when you saw Kerry. Yeah.

I swooned. You you swooned at well, she's the girl for me. Yeah. That's exactly it. And so that that's all good, isn't it?

Because that shows us that God doesn't just elect ends, he also elect means, doesn't he? Doesn't just elect the final destination. Yeah. But in his sovereignty, even the way in which we will come to Christ. You know, the person who would tell us the gospel.

And we're we're transformed by the renewing of our mind, as you say. So he he doesn't just elect us in a mechanical way, but by revealing and persuading and illuminating our eyes so that we see the preciousness of of science in our life. Yeah. Yeah. And and and, you know, the, you know, the the responsibility is is laid squarely at our feet, isn't it?

That's the other thing. So Although, you know, all that we've just said is true, the reality is that on on judgment day, you know, if people haven't, believed in Christ. They won't be able to say, oh, God, well, that's your, you know, that's your fault. You didn't choose me. You know, That is just not how it's taught.

Our choices are real and significant, and they matter in eternity's eyes. So we will be held accountable for what we do with the gospel. A hundred percent taught whilst also knowing that in his sovereignty God God has elected those. He he loves them. This is 1 of those doctrines where you have to have a bible world view and a bible understanding because if you if you go too far 1 side you you don't have a faithful understanding of who God is.

You think he's a cold meany. And if you go too far the other way, you have an understanding that God has nothing to do with our salvation. This is 1 of those times where to have a really faithful sort of idea of of God who God is and what he's like. We have to hold both of those things in absolute tension. And you you you see God's heart all the way through scripture from the first page to the last.

He's constantly wooing and chasing as we've already said lots of times. I remember when we were going through revelation and and there's a slow the original corona chronicles there's a slow ramp up of judgments on the earth to get people's attention and God is is holding back his judgment, his full judgment to give people the opportunity to to come into the fold. So there's that there's there's there's people's Yeah, it's that it's the blame is is at our own door in a sense and God is sovereign and both of these things are absolutely true. Yes. I mean, it's spur spurgeon again.

It's great on this. It says your damnation is your own election, not God's. Mhmm. Mhmm. And and so don't blame God for that.

Yeah. Yeah. And and there's something there there is something so humbling in all of this, isn't there? Yeah. And that's that's good.

It kind of follows, doesn't it? That if we believe in God -- Yep. -- and and we think God is all knowing, all loving, all powerful, then this must be true. Yeah. Mustn't it?

It must be true and and because that would flow from the source of God. But I think some top sorry. I think sometimes when you I know when I first was grappling with this as a young Christian. I found it incredibly depressing because I wasn't sort of seeing the the good news in it. And that you're predestined.

And the reason What what the reason is because it just shows you, it's nothing to do with you. It's a pin in and Paul uses this in Corinthians. It's it's a it's a pin in the balloon. If you start getting puffed up and think that you're something, and you start thinking that I'm saved, I'm better than my brother or family members that haven't trusted Christ. Then this pushes opinion and says it is absolutely nothing to do with you on that on that level.

And and and therefore it's quite humbling. That's 1 of the reasons why we don't like it. But then when you when this classic God, isn't it? You know, those he humbles, those he strikes down, are the ones that he rises it raises up. And once you've been humbled by it, there is such good news in it.

Yeah. Yeah. And that that can be used. It's just while you were saying that. It can be used evangelistically.

So I remember being at a university event. I can't remember if it was a mission. I don't know if you were there as well, Pete, but A speaker had given the talk and then afterwards, a student who was an atheist of a cynic had had gone up and was was kind of, you know, barouging him with questions in quite quite a hostile way and not really being willing to listen. And after I can't remember how long it was, that the speaker just said, well, you know, from from 1 angle, I'm not surprised you don't get this because God God probably hasn't chosen you. And it was just, you know, the sudden what, you know, the the affront in our culture of I'm not sovereign.

And I can't decide what I do and that I might not know something about this universe. It was so shocking And, you know, you might not use that in every situation, but there are times when something like that is appropriate just to as you say, put a pin in the balloon, take the wind out of the sails a bit, And, yeah, so that's that's another way of using it, I suppose. Any other just closing thoughts coming to come and see anything else? Well, I think you ask, you know, what comfort it is and and I guess there's a verse we really should turn to which is in Romans 8. That that uses not the word election but predestination.

And these 2 things, they're the same doctrine. But predestination sort of takes us a bit further. It says there's a destiny. You your call not you're not just elected and then that's it. But there is a there's the plan of God.

It's sort of that's going to take you right through. And these verses are are just spectacular. We know that This is Romans 8 28, we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God for you, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. We we are predestined.

See, you know, we as Christians, we're just so fed up with ourselves sometimes because we sin and fall. And you think am I gonna be ever like Jesus? Yeah. He will be. You will be conformed to the image of his son that he might be the first born among many brothers and sisters, so you're gonna be a brother and and those he predestined, he also called and those he called, he also justified and those he justified, he also glorified.

And now glorified is is a future thing, but it's spoken as if it's already happened. Because that's God's choosing of us. He will work through even through our failures, even through our, you know, slip ups and falls for fallings. Whenever we fall, we fall in Graceland. Whenever we fall, we fall as the predestined children of God.

And so we're going there. That's that's the comfort, isn't it? Brilliant. Well, that seems like a really good place to finish and thank you for joining us today. As I said at the start, you can follow us on social media, you can subscribe to us on YouTube and go on our church website for more resources to help you to grow as a Christian or to investigate the Christian faith.

And next week, we're going to be thinking about the letter f and we're going to be talking about faith, which is something that we mentioned a lot, but what does it actually mean?